looking for discussion on argument against open-completing

[Wynton]

I know I've read some threads where people convincingly explain why it is better to open-raise from sb than merely open-completing (with a plan to bet the flop no matter what).

But my search efforts are not working. Does anyone have a relevant link? If not, can you suggest some searches that might work?

[Surfbullet]

Hey Wynton,

I can't think of any threads off the top of my head.

My general understanding is that complete/bet or raise/bet differs depending upon your opponent. Many loose/passive players will dig in their heels once you raise them preflop, but if you complete and then bet they give you credit for hitting the flop because they don't feel like they are being pushed around.

This works quite well at 5/10 and below.

Of course if the BB is tight or weak then the raise is always better...and at 10/20+ there are many many players who will raise nearly any open-complete (as is correct most times) so this play loses its efficacy, but the open-reraise gains in potency with hands like ATs+ which figure to be a favorite over their raising standards.

GL,

Surf

[Wynton]

[ QUOTE ]
My general understanding is that complete/bet or raise/bet differs depending upon your opponent. Many loose/passive players will dig in their heels once you raise them preflop, but if you complete and then bet they give you credit for hitting the flop because they don't feel like they are being pushed around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I recall reading the same type of points before and being persuaded that, with the clear majority of all the player types out there, the better line was usually to raise pf. Unfortunately, I can't recall all of the various arguments.

Frankly, half of the reason for this post is to pick up some searching tips. I just can't seem to formulate a decent search.

[Surfbullet]

Search tips:

1) Include "-re:" in any search. This gets rid of replies to threads, so only original threads show up.
2) try searching for multiple phrases. put them in quotes. Searching for open complete(not in quotes) shows all threads with either word in them. Searching for "open complete" (in quotes) searches for that specific sequence of words. so... "open complete" + "continuation bet" + -re: might be a good first search. try swapping different phrases... "continuation bet" for "heads up" or add "blind war" etc.

GL.

Surf

[PokerCat69]

Search results makes me laugh/cry half the time.

Example: you search for something like a starting hand chart.
The threads that show up are all from people asking about a starting hand chart, and the replies those threads get are from people saying "use the search feature".

[Wynton]

Surf,

Thanks a lot for those tips. I'm sure they will come in handy in general, but unfortunately I can't come up with a relevant discussion to this particular inquiry.

I suppose it's also possible I imagined the prior discussions too. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] But I don't think so.

[Megenoita]

Wynton,

I don't see the advantage of open-completing and then auto-betting the flop in most situations. Might as well take the initiative right away. But it would be good where you have my image at a table. Tighter, doesn't auto-raise the blinds in position, but definitely goes strong with a piece. If you have this at a table, then open-completing and auto-betting has merit...villain will "know" you have a piece, and if he doesn't, he'll likely give up right away. But then you won a tiny amount, so I don't know...

The other thing I was going to say is to expand upon the concept that David Sklansky talks about, I think in HEPFAP, where he says against blinds that ALWAYS defend and go too far with their hands, it's often correct to open-limp with hands like A3o. The reason being that you really need an ace to flop to beat 2 guys who are going to the river every time. Well, applying that here, when I have a total fish in the BB, with hands like 97s I'll open-complete, and I knkow if I flop anything decent, he'll pay off to the river with K high, but conversely, I can get out cheaply if I miss. So here, I find open-completing better and this situation happens more often.

M

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]

The other thing I was going to say is to expand upon the concept that David Sklansky talks about, I think in HEPFAP, where he says against blinds that ALWAYS defend and go too far with their hands, it's often correct to open-limp with hands like A3o. The reason being that you really need an ace to flop to beat 2 guys who are going to the river every time. Well, applying that here, when I have a total fish in the BB, with hands like 97s I'll open-complete, and I knkow if I flop anything decent, he'll pay off to the river with K high, but conversely, I can get out cheaply if I miss. So here, I find open-completing better and this situation happens more often.

M

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really good point, and many players forget that initiative is worth nothing to a hand like 97s if you aren't folding out a better hand before the river.

Surf

[Wynton]

But here is the counterargument to the player who calls down with anything. Against this type, you still want to raise with your legitimate raising hands. You may not be able to win on the flop, but your equity still figures to be better than the random hand the opponent will have. Yet, if you are raising those hands, limping will give away too much info the rest of the time.

Also, the HEFAP discussion you cite refers to playing against 2 opponents postflop, which is much different. I am limiting the discussion to battles between the sb and bb.

The discussion I recall here did some more involved analysis, considering how different types of players in the bb might react when they face a sb raise. And my recollection is that the concensus still was that, with very few exceptions, you are better off raising/folding a vast majority of the time.

[Megenoita]

That's interesting, Wynton. I would like to read that discussion. But let me ask you this...with two cards suited under T, like 97s, 87s, 85s, etc., if you open-raise from the SB, how do you play post flop? Auto-bet the flop? If he calls, then what? If he raises, then what? Most of the time you'll have overcard flops with at least one broadway. If you check bad flops, even passive players will bet to take it down. If you open complete, now you have the option to play or not, and you don't feel obligated to force the issue. When you flop well, you are paid off a very high %. When you don't flop well, you have no risk because you get out. If you play 1 million hands like this, imagine how often you spew verses my way where you are always betting a hand against a guy who's guaranteed to call.

Maybe I just don't know how to play 97s post flop out of position against a fish when I don't flop well.

M