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Old 12-06-2005, 11:48 AM
Bandgeek Bandgeek is offline
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Default Question about non nut flushes

I've been reading up on Omaha and noticed that most authors love hands like 89TJds and 9TJQds and it makes alot of sense.

However I'm wondering how hard you can push with a Jack or Ten high flush?
Other things I've read say in Omaha you need to either have or be drawing to the stone cold nuts to call or make pot sized bets.
So are you just looking for wraparound straight draws or made straights with these hands or do you take the flushes to the river as well and just pay off the guy who has Ax of the same suit?
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Old 12-06-2005, 12:10 PM
jhall23 jhall23 is offline
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Default Re: Question about non nut flushes

Non nut flushes suck pretty bad. Those hands like 89TJds are pretty great hands, but you are not specifically looking to hit the flush with them. What is great about them is the ability to hit multi-way flops. The flush part comes in very handy as a feature that helps hit more multi-way flops. You can get all in against someone with the same straight as you but be free-rolling to a flush, they can act as blockers against someone who is drawing to a flush. Aiming for a straight/betting top-two and backdooring a flush makes it a little stronger. Etc, Etc.

However if you all you have is a J high flush (or draw to it) on the flop you should be very cautious with it. Most people arent going to give you much action with a flush worse than that, though some will. I usually only bet it in good postion when it has been checked around, or in shorthanded pots.
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Old 12-06-2005, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Question about non nut flushes

The answer is, as with most things in poker, it depends. Mostly it depends on the texture of the board and the range of hands that your opponent is betting. With suited run-downs you are really hoping to flop a straight/straight draw and have the flush outs as back-up. The flush outs allow you to build a large pot and force out better flush draws, etc. The flush outs also give you an exceptional equity edge in the case where two people both flop the nut straight, but one is free-rolling the other with the flush redraw.

If you don't have straight outs, then chasing a Q high or J high flush is certainly going to be -EV. If you hold Qd-Jd-10c-9c on a board that is 8d-4d-3c, your hand most likely belongs in the muck after the flop. Even if you see the turn for free and it completes the flush, you still aren't in a position to bet or call a bet.

Also, many times with such run-down hands, you will flop a draw on a rainbow board. If there is action on the flop and the turn brings a flush draw along with your straight draw, most of the time you will be able to count the cards completing the flush as outs.
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Old 12-06-2005, 12:23 PM
Bandgeek Bandgeek is offline
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Default Re: Question about non nut flushes

Ok so it looks like what both of you are saying is that I'm looking to flop a wrap around straight draw that gives me 12-15 outs or top two pair which would also give me an open ended straight draw along with 4 outs to a full house.
The non nut flush will only be good if I back into it, but if two of my suit come on the flop I can't really count those 9 outs as full outs. (Unless it's heads up after the flop?)
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  #5  
Old 12-06-2005, 02:46 PM
chekthastak chekthastak is offline
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Default Re: Question about non nut flushes

The non nut flushes are most useful as backdoor flushes. Like say 1 of your suit comes but you have a wrap draw and get all in on the flop against 1 person and you hit the flush on the river it's likely to be good. But say you flopped a flush draw, and on the turn the flush hits and your in there with a couple of people, it's not likely a J or Q high flush is good, unless the A is on the board. But you should never draw to a nun nut flush, it's a disaster in Omaha. Having double suited non nut hands are good as secondary draws when you already have a set, straight or wrap draw.
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