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#22
11-19-2005, 02:50 PM
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Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
if he is in "calldown mode" with A high you can bet the turn and the river now and get 2bets rather than one. [/ QUOTE ] yeah, that's the only reason i'm questioning my check. but hey, combinatorics, there's far less Ax hands than other hands he could call the flop cr with, so i'm not overly concerned. [ QUOTE ] as far as metagame considerations i generally like to play a ton of hands the same way to widen my range. i c/r this with any pair, any draw, and air (sometimes), and bet the turn in all the situations. [/ QUOTE ] i usually do too, but there are some times when i'm playing someone HU, and it happened when i was playing this guy, where i feel like giving up on the turn is best after my flop c/r gets called. so yeah he's seen me do this already, and yeah i went for the ol back-to-back checkraise once to deal with shania, he checked behind the turn then called the river. so c/r check again won't really change metagame much. it might have already changed the metagame though... an important thing that i failed to mention is that this guy isn't an overly tenacious value bettor. if i c/c the turn he'll check behind on the river with 55, 66, probably 7's. depending on the river he might bet A7, but he might check behind bad 8's as well. 
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#23
11-19-2005, 03:01 PM
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Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
See the thing is that on this flop, a check-raise is really only going to knock out worse hands (Q and J highs) and maybe some stronger aces, although you say he is adjusting to your aggressive play so its tough to tell whether he'll take AQ to showdown here. [/ QUOTE ] he said his opponent was a seemingly TAG but unknown plyr, not calling-station-donk-horrible-extraordinaire... you think average "TAGish" is calling down w/ 55/67/AT? also we dont want him in there w/ QJ unless he plans to spew off a bucket of chips and then give up on the river. [ QUOTE ] So while I agree the flop check-raise is +EV, check-calling the flop and turn UI is probably higher +EV since you'll be stealing the pot so often anyway, but with a smaller investment on your part. [/ QUOTE ] how exactly do you plan on "stealing" this pot if you intend to checkcallcheckcall? [ QUOTE ] The flop check-raise would be automatic here if you held jack high since then you won't ever be winning unimproved. [/ QUOTE ] so u advise checkcalling all the way A4high? or youre just going to check and pray he checks it down w/ no SD value and lets u win?
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#24
11-19-2005, 03:05 PM
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Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
you think average "TAGish" is calling down w/ 55/67/AT? [/ QUOTE ] yeah he might call those down after what he saw in our HU session, but yes he might fold them too.
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#25
11-19-2005, 03:30 PM
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Re: check/raise, check/call?
Posting blind. This is a good flop to approach passively because you have pretty solid showdown value. Gonores made a post about this in Mid/High a couple months ago. The idea is to play draws with showdown value passively to get to showdown, and draws that can't win unimproved more aggressively since they have fewer ways to win. This also has the effect of toning down your flop aggression a bit, so that when you DO attack with a draw it should work better. For example, if you just check/called down in this hand, you'd probably have a lot better fold equity against him next time you flop a draw.
All that said, I like betting the turn given the way you played it once you pick up the pair. Players in this game are plenty savvy enough to check behind lots of A-high hands on the turn that would have called you down. You also might be raised by a worse hand or called by some draws that will now check.
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#26
11-19-2005, 04:14 PM
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Re: check/raise, check/call?
check/calling this the whole way with A4 high just seems so wrong... do you or anyone else have a link to that thread maybe? it seems to make sense.
yeah i'll probably lose a bet if he has ace high, but what if he doesn't have ace high?
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#27
11-19-2005, 05:57 PM
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Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
he said his opponent was a seemingly TAG but unknown plyr, not calling-station-donk-horrible-extraordinaire... you think average "TAGish" is calling down w/ 55/67/AT? [/ QUOTE ] Wheelz said the guy has watched him be pretty aggressive so its tough to tell, but yea he would probably fold those a decent amount of the time. [ QUOTE ] so u advise checkcalling all the way A4high? or youre just going to check and pray he checks it down w/ no SD value and lets u win? [/ QUOTE ] No I don't think calling the river would be wise so yes I am hoping he checks it down and lets me win. I'm not saying this will happen everytime, but I don't see this guy betting all 3 streets with an unimproved queen high all that often. I don't disagree that you will pick up more pots by taking the lead in this hand, but you need to weigh that against the investment you make and then compare it to your other options. It's probably close, but I think in this hand your showdown value helps you win the pot without any aggression enough to make a passive line more valuable.
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