|
|
#11
11-19-2005, 01:04 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
What is the idea behind the flop checkraise? [/ QUOTE ] i'm surprised so many people didn't like the flop CR, i thought that's pretty standard. his range on the button 3 handed is pretty damn wide, if i don't have the best hand with my ace high oh well i have the nut flush draw and an overcard. i don't know why i should check/call here. [ QUOTE ] The four on the turn however is much easier. You've leapfrogged a ton of common stealing hands and strengthened your draw. Do not give a free card to all those aces, straight draws, and flush draws that are chasing you. [/ QUOTE ] i explained in my response to flawless why i checked because i leapfrogged a ton of his common stealing hands. i don't know if that makes checking correct but that's what i was thinking. i suppose he might call down here with ace high, so maybe i give him a free card there, but obviously i'd rather have him stay in with his ace highs now since he has 2-3 outs. given what he thinks of me though, i think he's fairly likely to bet the turn with a draw after i check. [ QUOTE ] He may have a king in which case you'll be raised. But is bet-call, check-fold really any more costly than check-call, check-call? [/ QUOTE ] yeah i realize that's not really an issue at all. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] villain is TAG. ... i had been playing the button HU for a while before. [/ QUOTE ] Why do you do this? [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] i was the only one sitting at a 6 handed 20/40 table, he sat down and we started playing. by the time i realized he was "TAG" i was up nearly a buy-in... like i said he was folding too much HU. sometimes players you don't like seeing at a 6 handed table are a treat to play HU. i just play HU against whoever wants to play really, if it turns out they are really good and no one else sits i can just leave. but most unknown internet players are bad, so i'm willing to take that risk. 
|
|
#13
11-19-2005, 01:12 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a chance he could raise the turn with worse hands as well. [/ QUOTE ] i agree, but it's small. i think there's a pretty decent chance of him betting with a worse hand if i check though. [ QUOTE ] He'll also call down with some worse hands. [/ QUOTE ] yes i might miss a bet if he has 22-33 or a decent ace. but i think i may get more bets against this player and his range of worse hands by checking the turn.
|
|
#14
11-19-2005, 01:16 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] but he seemed to finally adjust and make some calldowns. [/ QUOTE ] This seems to me to be a good reason not to C/R the flop, but check-raise when you hit. [/ QUOTE ] maybe you guys are onto something, i'll rethink the flop c/r.
|
|
#15
11-19-2005, 01:21 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] but he seemed to finally adjust and make some calldowns. [/ QUOTE ] This seems to me to be a good reason not to C/R the flop, but check-raise when you hit. [/ QUOTE ] maybe you guys are onto something, i'll rethink the flop c/r. [/ QUOTE ] no need to rethink. checkraising there is like raising the river w/ nuts closing the action. auto-matic.
|
|
#17
11-19-2005, 01:30 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: check/raise, check/call?
3handed you should bet this. c/f river. why? because he'll have a hand like JT or a 7 or a better ace too often. he'll bet with any hands that beat you and take a free card with any hand you beat.
sure you may get raised but it's unlikely he has a king in general (since its 3 handed) and thats really the only hand that raises you. bet imo
|
|
#18
11-19-2005, 01:42 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
3handed you should bet this. [/ QUOTE ] yeah i usually bet this, this time i didn't, i explained why. are you saying that if we were in this same situation but it was 6 handed you like the turn check? [ QUOTE ] c/f river. why? [/ QUOTE ] are you saying i shouldn't c/f if i bet and get raised on the turn? if so, i disagree. if you're saying i shouldn't c/f the river after checking the turn, i'm not going to. [ QUOTE ] he'll bet with any hands that beat you and take a free card with any hand you beat. [/ QUOTE ] i already said this isn't the case at all, but ok. [ QUOTE ] sure you may get raised but it's unlikely he has a king in general (since its 3 handed) and thats really the only hand that raises you. [/ QUOTE ] if that's the only hand that raises me then why do you think i should call the river after a turn raise? i guess you did mean i can't c/f the river after checking the turn? and as was discussed earlier in the thread, getting raised by a better hand actually isn't of any concern to me here, so him raising a king isn't a problem.
|
|
#19
11-19-2005, 02:02 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: check/raise, check/call?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 3handed you should bet this. [/ QUOTE ] yeah i usually bet this, this time i didn't, i explained why. are you saying that if we were in this same situation but it was 6 handed you like the turn check? [ QUOTE ] c/f river. why? [/ QUOTE ] are you saying i shouldn't c/f if i bet and get raised on the turn? if so, i disagree. if you're saying i shouldn't c/f the river after checking the turn, i'm not going to. [ QUOTE ] he'll bet with any hands that beat you and take a free card with any hand you beat. [/ QUOTE ] i already said this isn't the case at all, but ok. [ QUOTE ] sure you may get raised but it's unlikely he has a king in general (since its 3 handed) and thats really the only hand that raises you. [/ QUOTE ] if that's the only hand that raises me then why do you think i should call the river after a turn raise? i guess you did mean i can't c/f the river after checking the turn? and as was discussed earlier in the thread, getting raised by a better hand actually isn't of any concern to me he re, so him raising a king isn't a problem. [/ QUOTE ] sorry i am very hung over or i would have read all your posts before posting this. i see now that you are sort of trying to "induce a bluff". which is fine. but at the same time i think there are some metagame considerations, and you also have a TON of outs if you are indeed behind. plus, if he is in "calldown mode" with A high you can bet the turn and the river now and get 2bets rather than one. as far as metagame considerations i generally like to play a ton of hands the same way to widen my range. i c/r this with any pair, any draw, and air (sometimes), and bet the turn in all the situations.
|
|
#20
11-19-2005, 02:07 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: check/raise, check/call?
See the thing is that on this flop, a check-raise is really only going to knock out worse hands (Q and J highs) and maybe some stronger aces, although you say he is adjusting to your aggressive play so its tough to tell whether he'll take AQ to showdown here. Since you're seeing the river with your flush draw, you're likely going to take the pot away from those worse hands anyway the times he doesn't bluff the turn and river. So while I agree the flop check-raise is +EV, check-calling the flop and turn UI is probably higher +EV since you'll be stealing the pot so often anyway, but with a smaller investment on your part.
The flop check-raise would be automatic here if you held jack high since then you won't ever be winning unimproved.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
