To call or not ?

[kuro]

Middle local low buyin MTT.
Multiple limpers and I complete in the sb with T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Short stack with like 5xbb after posting pushs from bb. It folds around to me and I'm getting 2:1 pot odds to call but the call represents like 30% of my stack. Do you call or not? If not what do you need to call?

[hurlyburly]

Auto-call. 2/1 is more than enough to justify a call here and it will help your table image a ton whatever the results.

[tiger7210]

I need a better hand than T high to call off 30% of my stack that I can use later on. If it was like 10% of my chips with all the dead money in the pot then I'll call here. The hand you need to call here I think just depends on your read on the villain and what type of hand you think he would push here with multiple limpers in the pot. You have to figure he either has a pair or a big Ace. T9 is just not worth that type of gamble IMO for 30% of your chips when you know you're behind.

[Shajen]

I fold. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? probably call.

[hurlyburly]

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Td 9d 658983 38.49 1045325 61.05 7996 0.47 0.387
As Ks 1045325 61.05 658983 38.49 7996 0.47 0.613

Is there any reason to believe he has TT-AA here? Those are the only hands that don't justify a call at this stage of the tournament. 30% may seem like too much, but busting shortstacks and stealing blinds are all you should be thinking about at this stage, and 2/1 pot odds here is too good to pass up.

[CardSharpCook]

so you're getting 67/33 on pot odds and odds of winning are 61/39. obviously, in a cash game, you call. But do you remember the tourney theory that says that the fewer chips you have, the more they are worth and the more chips, the less each additional chip is worth? I think that applies here. Also, consider the possibility that you are dominated by A-10, J10, etc. Also, the odds against an overpair do not favor a call, unless I am mistaken.

The only reason for a call here is for table image - let people see you call with crap, and they will be less willing to push against you with similiar crap. (not that 10-9s is crap, but heads up, it ain't good)

CSC

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold. Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]? probably call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any particular reason, or just because you have a hard-on for queens?

I would be less inclined to call with QTs: it is not connected, and is more likely to be dominated by AQ/KQ and more of your str8 cards are more likely to be used.

CSC

[kuro]

Initial thoughts:
My thinking was that the short stack didn't need much of a hand to push from the bb because he was getting good pot odds, early limpers would be reluctant to call or make an isolation raise for fear of those acting behind them, and late limpers were likely to be playing drawing hands that they wouldn't feel comfortable calling an all-in with. I figured that I was probably around a 60:40 dog against his range of hands and I was getting 66:33 pot odds so a call was marginally +ev. The call represented 30% of my stack though and I was concerned about losing chips that I could have bet at a greater +ev situation later. I thought for a while and grudgingly called.

Results:
Villain turned over Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I flopped both an oesd and a flush draw and made the straight on the river.
For the next hour my blinds were frequently folded to me and my blind steals didn't get played back at because people were afraid I'd call them and I got action on my big hands a couple of times when I shouldn't have.

After thoughts:
Villain in this case probably didn't understand short stack play and pot odds well enough to push with as broad a range as I gave him credit for so the call was probably neutral ev or slightly -ev. I was amazed that the table image I gained from this allowed me to bully with a medium stack so effectively afterwards. I don't know that if I'd called and lost that I'd have been as effective bullying with my smaller stack. In retrospect, I think I needed either a larger stack to make this call so that even if I lost I would still be able to effectively exploit the table image or I needed a better read that villain was capable of pushing with a broader range of cards.

[DVO]

Kuro,

I'm working on the math part of the game and would look at this as follows. Interested if you see any flaws here:

You're either up against:

Higher pair = 4/1 dog
lower pair = even money
overcards = 60/40 dog

My guess ( and this is the tough part) is all three categories are roughly equal. So:

1/3 of the time X .25 = 8% EV
1/3 X .50 = 16% EV
1/3 X .40 = 13% EV

So EV ~ 37%; villain's EV = 73%, and you're getting 2/1.

I'd be tempted. The table image benefits might be worth it.

BTW the trick for me will be learning to do this quickly in the heat of the moment.

Also it should be noted, there's a chance he's on a total bluff, and also a chance you're totally dominated by AT, KT etc. But those probably cancel out.