That one bad hand...

[bdohaney]

I have been weighing over the hand that knocked me out of the MTT last night, and have thought it over repeatedly. here is the hand.

PokerStars Game #2505271053: Tournament #12088558, Hold'em No Limit - Level XVI (4000/8000) - 2005/09/05 - 16:07:22 (ET)
Table '12088558 20' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 3: ThomasToget (159358 in chips)
Seat 4: sylvyu (136204 in chips)
Seat 5: UnBalanced1 (75032 in chips)
Seat 6: Almost_Phil (86582 in chips)
Seat 8: bdohaney (135954 in chips)
Seat 9: tdubes (22891 in chips)
ThomasToget: posts the ante 400
sylvyu: posts the ante 400
UnBalanced1: posts the ante 400
Almost_Phil: posts the ante 400
bdohaney: posts the ante 400
tdubes: posts the ante 400
tdubes: posts small blind 4000
ThomasToget: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
sylvyu: folds
UnBalanced1: folds
Almost_Phil: folds
bdohaney: raises 32000 to 40000
tdubes: calls 18491 and is all-in
ThomasToget: raises 118958 to 158958 and is all-in
bdohaney: calls 95554 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [3d 6h 4s]
*** TURN *** [3d 6h 4s] [8h]
bdohaney said, "there goes"
*** RIVER *** [3d 6h 4s 8h] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ThomasToget: shows [Qs Qd] (a pair of Queens)
bdohaney: shows [Kh Qh] (high card Ace)
ThomasToget collected 226126 from side pot
tdubes: shows [Kc Kd] (a pair of Kings)
tdubes collected 69873 from main pot
bdohaney said, "gg"
bdohaney said, "oh well."
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 295999 Main pot 69873. Side pot 226126. | Rake 0
Board [3d 6h 4s 8h Ad]
Seat 3: ThomasToget (big blind) showed [Qs Qd] and won (226126) with a pair of Queens
Seat 4: sylvyu folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: UnBalanced1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Almost_Phil folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: bdohaney (button) showed [Kh Qh] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 9: tdubes (small blind) showed [Kc Kd] and won (69873) with a pair of Kings

Now, I completely agree that this definitely should have been a fold. What I am still not completely sure on was at which point it became a fold.

I am thinking that it should have been a fold after the second player went all-in, as the first player, being shortstacked could be trying to push me off of my bet, as I had been pushing him around/stealing his blind for the past few rounds. Am I thinking right in this, as KQs is a decent hand in its own right, against a player that may or may not have any real strength himself? Am I wrong in thinking this, or should this have been a fold after the first player went all in?

I wouldn't have raised so much in the first place, and I'd be ready to fold the first time someone came over the top. It really sounds to me like you want to play this hand and are looking for ways to put the re-raiser on a hand that would justify your calling. Just because he could be playing you doesn't mean that he is. There's a chance he's got KJ or a low pair, but most of the other hands where he pushes like this have you dominated (Q's, K's, A's, AK, AQ). If you fold, you'll still have a reasonable stack, and you're beat way too often to call here.

Also remember that one shorty has already called for all-in, so the guy coming over the top of you knows he won't win much without a reasonable hand.

With blinds and antes as high as they are, you need to find less expensive ways to put the others at the table to a decision for all their chips. Raising to 25K would probably still accomplish that- most people at the this table would be committing their entire stacks if they played back at you, and if anyone cold calls, you've got a hand that plays pretty well after the flop. If one of the shorties pushes, you can call, and if someone big comes over the top, you can fold.

Nice finish, and good choice of a hand to post. Learning to make good-sized raises and tough laydowns in high blind situations is critical to succeeding at MTT's.

[nsj]

Raise it to a standard 3x bb, and fold to the push over the top. It does look like a squeeze play from the big stack to get 3:1 against the short stack, but you can't call off your stack with QK.

[ekky]

[ QUOTE ]
I am thinking that it should have been a fold after the second player went all-in, as the first player, being shortstacked could be trying to push me off of my bet, as I had been pushing him around/stealing his blind for the past few rounds. Am I thinking right in this, as KQs is a decent hand in its own right, against a player that may or may not have any real strength himself? Am I wrong in thinking this, or should this have been a fold after the first player went all in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you should have folded after the BB went all-in. Even without the guy between you being all-in, the raise from the BB would be enough cause for concern.

However, he knows he is going to showdown vs the all-in, and you would have to be at a pretty high level for someone to be making this move with nothing, just so he could take the 20k side pot and freeroll the all-in guy in the main pot.(of which 18,491 is his anyway)

taking all this into account,I'd say the *standard* range here would roughly be something like 1010---AA/AK/AQ , and QK underperforms against this range.

[JC_Saves]

this is a perfect example of raising too much with a hand to accomplish what you want. The problem is you lose too much when you get called and lose, plus when you bet so much you almost guarantee that AA, KK, QQ, AK are the hands that call you, all of which have you beat.

When the second guy goes all in this became a fold.

[play2win]

First off if you knew that this should have been folded then why did you call?

Regardless, I like the inital play. No doubt against two random holdings it is a big favorite. Especailly at this stage everytime you pick-up the blinds it helps. 5x the BB might be over doing it though, you are putting the SB in a fold or all-in spot. If he has been folding out on raises before he is playing conservatively thus far. So what kind of hands is he going to play with? At best Ax, or a PP, both of which have you beat, or worse AK or AQ or better which you are a big dog too.

So the SB wakes up with one of these hands and moves all-in. That sucks, you know he has you beat, at best you are hoping for an underpair and maybe you can draw a card out. So you will take your lumps if you have too, but eventually you can wear him down.

The BB has you covered and is doing pretty well. Now he wakes up and moves all in over the top! At this point you have to step back and ponder. He must have decent hand. Depending on how the play at the table has been (I assume normal to tight) this makes your decision easy. You can assume some of your outs are probably gone (I would count a K or two out). Now the pot is 3-way, which is lowering your odds even more. The key to going to distance is avoiding close % situations. You know you are a dog here, at best you might have a 40% shot, not something you want to let your tourny life ride on. Muck the cards wait for the next hand and hope the SB gets knocked out by the BB moving you ahead and closer to the $$. You can get away here with some chips left to make moves on later rounds....that is what I would do.

It just so happens that you were almost drawing dead here, this was a worst case scenario for you. 2 of the 3 kings and queens were already gone, you were looking for a flush or a straight, which you have no idea if you will even have a chance until the flop hits. Even Ax would have beaten you here...because they would have been all-in they would have the advantage to see all the cards without having to make any decisions, then hit on the river.

My take on KQ: this is a drawing hand....rarley does it win unimproved. It is overplayed all the time and doing that is a losing situation. If you raise with it you will usually only be called by hands that have you beat already or hands that will come over the top of you like what happened here. You should never like being re-raised with this hand. It is good to see a flop with especailly in position, if you raise too much someone might move all-in and you might have to muck it where if you saw the flop you might have won a nice pot or got away from it cheaply! [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]