Why does this seem to always happen with AA?

[JC_Saves]

This type of hand seems to haunt with either KK
or AA for some reason. I called a hand where I thought I was beat and sure enough I was, but on this hand top pair and Nut flush draw this is a no brainer right?



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">UTG (t1970)</font>
UTG+1 (t1430)
MP1 (t1860)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t1890)</font>
MP3 (t1360)
CO (t1390)
Button (t1040)
SB (t1100)
BB (t1460)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls t100, MP1 folds.

Flop: (t290) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t180</font>, UTG calls t180.

Turn: (t650) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1670</font>, Hero ?

Easy call. If you are behind (I'd put it 50/50) you still have outs.

[TomHimself]

[RiverDood]

We've seen a couple variants of this post in the past week.

Hero starts with AA or KK. Hero gives Villain 4 cheap cards and then gets caught up in a betting frenzy at the end. Hero fumes that Villain now has the better hand.

On this one, yes, you've got a glorious draw at the flop. It might be good enough to push. It might merit a pot-sized bet -- looking for some folding equity either way, as well as a clear sense of whether you're ahead or not. With the small bet, you don't know what your opponent's call means; your opponent could have a flush, a set, a weaker overpair or nothing.

On the turn, the T400 bet feels like the worst possible size. You're still not sure where you are, and you're likely to get action only when you don't want it. Yes, KK, QQ or TT might call you. But most other lagging hands will fold. JJ, 99 or two clubs now can push -- knowing that you've let yourself become pot-committed. Even a mendacious check-raiser can make a play at the whole pot. Shoot me if I'm guessing wrong, but everything about Villain's play makes me think he's got JJ. It's hard to think that he's playing KcQc or a weaker club hand, though anything is possible.

In any case, I'd bet the flop harder. After that I'd try to see the river as cheaply as possible and think about letting go of the hand if Villain is aggressive.

[TomHimself]

He didn't make that small of bets. 2/3rds on each street. i still think its a easy push/call on turn

[Dave D]

I think I would have bet the pot, or even a little more on the turn. But easy call of his push. Sometimes the idiot calls your PF raise when he shouldn't have and gets lucky hitting his 1%er and you don't make your redraw. But especially this early in a normal 30+3 or whatever, villian has some stupid club draw or top pair too often not to call.

It happens.

[JC_Saves]

thanks all. my thinking on bet sizes was that you are trying to get them to call while not giving them the correct odds for whatever they are drawing for, ie. theorem of poker, but for some reason it seems that most people always want to bet more to drive them away.

The only hand I was afraid of at this point really, on the turn that is, was a made flush already. When the Jack hit and he reraised me all in I thought that that was really strange.

1. he limped so I didnt put him on JJ at all %5
2. worst case I thought he might have made two pair with his Jack, but then again, I could not see what hands he would have called my big preflop raise after limping. Odds 20%
3. the flop call and then big reraise on turn just seemed to be a way of telling me to go away, now. I couldnt come up with a plausible reason for the all-in with the J hitting.

This was my rationale for calling the all-in. Was there something else that I really should have thought about?

by the way he showed down KhJc.

[RiverDood]

KJo -- mercy, that's disgusting!

Your play is a whole lot better than his. He never should have stayed in preflop, but of course he did. Put the guy on your buddy list. With his playing style, he wants to give you money. A lot of money. You just have to give him more chances to make appropriate donations.

BTW, you're right about loose games where people on draws keep calling, even when we try to price them out. The only cure I've found is to play steadily enough, at modest enough stakes, that everything sorts out OK over time.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
thanks all. my thinking on bet sizes was that you are trying to get them to call while not giving them the correct odds for whatever they are drawing for, ie. theorem of poker, but for some reason it seems that most people always want to bet more to drive them away.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "reason" is that people always tell themselves "if only I had bet more, he would have folded," or alternatively, they give others the same advice. It's bad, results-oriented advice. In this case, with an overpair plus a big redraw, it would have been a pity to play it any more strongly. I agree with your play on every street.

[SossMan]

if you are even close to considering folding on the turn after you bet, you should check behind the turn. Hell, I might check behind the turn there and call any non-club river bet from him anyway against a normal opponent.