Pushing over loose bad players with TT

[durron597]

I really didn't want to call because of my position, and I figured with their stack sizes I'm not risking too much. Really my big worry is the EP limper, but I want him to fold even more. Stars $16 turbo.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

UTG (t2440)
UTG+1 (t2390)
MP1 (t2100)
MP2 (t1470)
MP3 (t600)
CO (t1370)
Button (t650)
SB (t870)
Hero (t1610)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t90</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t90, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1640</font>,

[TT_fold]

What's wrong with calling and seeing a flop? I would probably lead out with a 2/3 pot bet on any all-undercard flop or any flop containing a T. If you get raised all-in on an all-undercard flop, your decision to call/fold will come down to a read.

This is a massive overbet, and while it's might be +EV to play your hand this way, I would wager that it's even more +EV to take a flop with this hand.

[durron597]

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What's wrong with calling and seeing a flop?

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I would be out of position in a multiway pot.

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I would probably lead out with a 2/3 pot bet on any all-undercard flop or any flop containing a T. If you get raised all-in on an all-undercard flop, your decision to call/fold will come down to a read.

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No, I would call 100% of the time with these stack sizes.

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This is a massive overbet,


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No it isn't. Look at their stack sizes.

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and while it's might be +EV to play your hand this way, I would wager that it's even more +EV to take a flop with this hand.

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Are you so sure of this out of position multiway?

[Matt R.]

I'd prefer a call here with the EP limper. Without the limper I think it's fine, although it still may be a bit risky for a relatively small pot. I think calling solely to flop a set is worth a lot here actually in a 4 way pot given everyone's stack sizes. Maybe more than the ~250 in the pot before your raise. Since there will be a lot of good non-set flops for you too, I prefer a call over pushing here.

[ldavidjm]

After looking at this one for the second time I think I can agree with the push here. If MP and Button had deeper stacks I would definitely say calling is the best way to go, but playing for set value against stacks as small as theirs doesn't seem worth it.

Calling seems pretty bad because of their stack sizes and your position, and folding is weak tight, so I think pushing is the best option.

It sucks that there's an UTG limper but I don't think that affects my discision to push.

[durron597]

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It sucks that there's an UTG limper but I don't think that affects my discision to push.

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Another option that I didn't think about at the time is just raising enough to set the shorties allin if they call and then I can fold to a UTG push.

[Matt R.]

I think calling is okay specifically to lure UTG into the pot too. If the flop is good for him and you make your set, you could easily stack him, as well as get chips from the other 2 smaller stacks (maybe all of them if they're bad enough). There's a lot of risk involved in pushing preflop, particularly if UTG will limp with monsters. Also, 600 chips isn't totally insignificant to your stack if one of the other 2 players calls you. I don't think pushing is a bad play, I just think if you're a good post-flop player calling may be better despite your lousy position.

[durron597]

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I think calling is okay specifically to lure UTG into the pot too.

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Why do I want him in the pot? His stack is bigger than mine and he has position on me.

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If the flop is good for him and you make your set, you could easily stack him, as well as get chips from the other 2 smaller stacks (maybe all of them if they're bad enough).


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I flop a set 7.5:1 times. He probably doesn't have a big ace, so really all I'm hoping for is set over set basically never or for him to flop 2 pair (20:1). Is that worth it?

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There's a lot of risk involved in pushing preflop, particularly if UTG will limp with monsters.

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This is like the 5th hand.

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Also, 600 chips isn't totally insignificant to your stack if one of the other 2 players calls you. I don't think pushing is a bad play,

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Most of the time I'm a slight favorite. And winning the t200 in the pot isn't totally insignificant either.

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I just think if you're a good post-flop player calling may be better despite your lousy position.

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I think I play decently post flop but I have lost more money with TT out of position than any other hand (out of position).

[PrayingMantis]

durron, imo this is far from being the best move for here you. It's stars, so stacks are very deep now, you have more than 50xBB. You can certainly see a flop here. If you think you are better then them, it means that you have a big advantage taking a flop. True, you're out of position, but that's not good enough reason to push with such a big stack. And also you won't get that many loose calls here. You are really narrowing the range of hands that will call you. IMO you will rarely get a call from a hand that is actually behind you in a significant way. Take a flop.

[durron597]

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so stacks are very deep now,

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Did you look at the stack sizes of my opponents?