2/5NL live - JTs

[swolfe]

i'm in the early MP with JT[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and something like $800. two limpers, i limp, Wild Action Guy #2 ($65, he started with $500 and i doubled through him) raises to $30 (this means nothing), one LP caller, BB calls, 2 limpers call, i call.

flop (~$185) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checks to WAG2 who throws his last $35 in, LP calls, BB calls, folds to me, i make it $250

i think i have 14 solid outs to beat whatever crap WAG2 has, if i'm not ahead of him already. i'd really like to get the other people out.

[wdeadwyler]

Looks good to me, if LP or BB wakes up, at least you still have 8 outs. I think you isolate WAG a VERY significant portion of the time here.

[jhall23]

I think the other 2 callers stack sizes are pretty important here as well as any reads on them especially there degree of calling of station-ness.

Seems to be a +EV move to try and get it heads up with probably at least 8 outs and tons of overlay cause I think it's rare either of the callers having enough to call. May be better then just calling with all the dead money, but if the others have decent stacks and your implied odds are good it may be better to hit your draw since your are getting unbelievable odd's to do so.

I think if you are confident that LP and BB have crap and will fold almost all the time your play has more value due to the big pot that was built pre-flop. The implied odds and standards for calling by the 2 cold-callers are the pieces of info we need to make some sort of EV calc to compare the two.

[wdeadwyler]

JWolfe, we have no reason to think the other two callers have anything at all because they have c/c on this flop. I think we would see a c/r or a lead from any semi-good player with any decent hand. I dont think hero will get paid off when he hits here by these morons, and Id hate one of them to turn two pair with something like 910 and win the pot that I coulda gone up against with a huge overlay. I like isolating here, no matter how deep they are, simply cuz I dont think any implied odds are there. Why do you think they will pay hero off?

[MuckerFish]

Looks good. What are you're plans for the side pot if called, the turn doesn't complete the draw and A) You're led into on the turn, and B) you're checked to on the turn? If you're planning on folding in situation A, smooth call on the flop seems better. No sense building a side pot you plan on giving up anyway.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
JWolfe, we have no reason to think the other two callers have anything at all because they have c/c on this flop. I think we would see a c/r or a lead from any semi-good player with any decent hand. I dont think hero will get paid off when he hits here by these morons, and Id hate one of them to turn two pair with something like 910 and win the pot that I coulda gone up against with a huge overlay. I like isolating here, no matter how deep they are, simply cuz I dont think any implied odds are there. Why do you think they will pay hero off?

[/ QUOTE ]

JWolfe, did Scott and I get married? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I never meant to imply that they would pay off if Swolfe hit. That is the information that we don't have and I was asking Swolfe if he had it.

I agree with pretty much all you say here and isolating is good. They most often have complete crap. However some live players suck so bad that even though they have crap and should fold they don't.

As I said, if they fold a high percentage of the time the isolation is better cause of the dead money. If he had any more info on the callers it could possibly shift it.

[4_2_it]

Looks fine. If one of the others calls you have outs and a backdoor flush. You have to put one of them on a Q with a weak kicker and will not want to put his stack at risk with that.

[swolfe]

LP had like $300 left and the other caller had something less than that.

EDIT: they were both loose-passives, but i felt i had good fold equity against their crap.

[Andrew Fletcher]

What if the other people are playing bigger hands tricky? They want to get all the money of the crazy guy. I think you might be step into a minefield and the raise can get you into the trouble. Just call and try to see the next two cards as cheap as possible. You're likely in a for a tough decision on the turn or river....if LP didn't just re-pop you right there.

[jhall23]

Could be possible they are sand-bagging, but it's more likely they have crap.

Regardless his decision is easy in later streets or if raised. From his last post LP had 300 and the other dude less so he calls anything further no way he folds after his raise.