Just a bad beat right?

[Tosh]

Well said major.

[Sarge85]

Excellent, and I certain have a better understanding. Your reply should be a stand alone post somewhere.

Thanks for responding.

[Dylan Wade]

[ QUOTE ]
Ironically, the 3- and 4-bets are often better for the flush draws than the player making them.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

[harboral]

This is a very clear point that has just been made - the ONLY time you can chage a flush or straight draw is when you are head-up, and even then it is close. I believe this point is stressed in Doyle's book - in the NL section, and many readers in the early 1980's (and maybe now also) read the NL and the Limit sections and got some ideas crossed. If you are playing NL and there is a flush or st8 draw out there, you make a bet at least 2x the pot size to leave poor odds for the other players in the pot with you - this does not happen in Limit.

[William Wilson]

I have to question this "charge the flush draws" annoyance. Let me know if I'm wrong here.

Doesn't this pertain to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker? If you raise so your opponent is paying too much to ride out a flush draw, then you've gained. That's TOP, if I'm not mistaken.

If I'm playing 5/10, and the pot is $20, and I have top pair (say the Aces from an earlier example) UTG on the flop against a possible flush draw on the button, I'll raise because the pot will have to be $50 for him to correctly call the $10 bet.

If I just call, he's got great odds to call the flush and could possibly raise to get a free card if everyone else calls.

What's wrong with this strategy? I'm not trying to be argumentative ... I really want to know if I've misunderstood.

[William Wilson]

As Kong pointed out privately (thanks), a raise UTG is impossible, so my above scenario must be adjusted accordingly.

[Ocho]

Thank you major!!! Excellent post.
I agree with Sarge this definitely deserves to be a stand alone post, if not added to the 2+2 essay list.

[sublime]

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
If you raise so your opponent is paying too much to ride out a flush draw, then you've gained.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is correct but I believe his point was (please feel free to correct me when I'm wrong) that you can very rarely make it enough bets in limit hold'em to make it incorrect for the flush draws to call. Pot-limit or NL is a different story but I agree that this concept is focused on too much in limit. If you have the best hand you almost always do want to "charge" all drawing hands but that doesn't mean you will make it incorrect for them to call. Also as was pointed out, if it is a multiway pot (with 5-6 players for example) all bets going into the pot are probably helping your opponent with the nut flush draw more than you with top pair. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't bet into him as it is +EV for both of you and -EV for the other callers playing lower pairs, top pair weak kicker, worse flush draws, etc.

[chief444]

To avoid confusion for anyone unsure about this concept...This is absolutely true but does NOT mean that 3- and 4-bets are bad for the player making them if they do have the best hand or even another good drawing hand that would give them the best hand. It just means that it is good for both you and the best flush draw. It is bad for the others calling down with 2nd best hands and few outs to improve.

It is almost always a bad thing for you to let weaker hands see a free card unless you have a legit slow-playing hand or are sure you can check/raise.