Couple questions about Christianity

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

1. Before Jesus, were all people sent to Heaven? Or were they all sent to Hell?


[/ QUOTE ]

There are no specifics laid out in the Bible about this. Paul, in Romans, states that Abraham is the example for all because he "believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness". Obviously, he didn't have faith in Jesus Christ as we know Him, as He hadn't been born yet. Paul also talks about how God reveals Himself to all people, though he doesn't tie this in specifically to Christ. So orthodox Christianity usually says that God saves those who have faith in Him without trying to lay down a set of rules for those who haven't heard of Christ.

[ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, then how do missionaries justify doing what they do?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe anyone thinks that someone will be lost after hearing the gospel who would otherwise have been saved had they not heard. Jesus told His disciples to go to all the world and preach the gospel, so it's not correct to say this causes people to be lost.

Most Protestant denominations that I know of would hold the view that nobody is sent to heaven or hell until Jesus returns, and the final Judgement takes place. It's not real clear "where" they are until then. Abraham's bosom? Purgatory? A lower-level of heaven? I've heard lots of different ideas.

Christians can't even agree on what "hell" is, much less who goes, when, and how.

[Peter666]

Yes, simply the New Catechism says that we can hope for the salvation of unbaptized children, which is heresy. If they have not reached the age of reason and they have not had water or martyrdom baptism, we cannot hope for them going to heaven. If effectively denies the dogma of Baptism.

Here is the exact passage from the CCC:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"[63] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

I have asked Novus Ordo priests to clarify this position and they say that the Church teaching has "evolved" which is BS de fide heresy. They lie to penitent mothers who had abortions, saying things like, "don't worry, your baby is in Heaven now." Without the grace of Baptism under one of its three forms, one cannot enter Heaven, period.

[RJT]

Peter,

Here is a link to a discussion of limbo:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

Nothing in the linked text leads me to believe that your position is valid. Therefore ( fully aware that exegesis is not my forte, yet relying on David’s theory of those smarter than I - the Pope in this case) I hereby accept your challenge.

Let’s here what you got.

RJT

Do Catholics just believe whatever new doctrines the Vatican spits out? I know I'm generalizing by saying "catholics," so I'll narrow it. What do catholics on here believe regarding this?

If I were Catholic I think I'd be critical of any new doctrines, considering the religion is CHRISTianity and Mr. Christ died 2000 years ago. They may be ordained and blessed and learned and all that other good stuff, but is anyone really an authority on this subject.

Which brings me to another, perhaps more valid question. What is the Church's stance on modern doctrines; do they require faith in them, or are catholics only required to believe in the older teachings?

[Peter666]

Catholics believe that every dogma and doctrine comes from what is called the deposit of faith. This means that everything essential regarding our religion was taught by Christ during his ministry and left to the Apostles. When dogmas or doctrines are formed, these are not new concepts being revealed. They are simply a clarification of what Christ taught. So throughout history when certain issues came into dispute, or new issues arose, the Church would provide the final answer by formulating a dogma, and this answer is guaranteed to be true through the intercession of the Holy Ghost. These are said to be defined or de fide statements, and to oppose or question them is to be a heretic.

[vulturesrow]

The Church teaching doesnt state that un baptized children go to heaven. It only says that we can only entrust them to God's care. It makes no statements on their actual status. It almost seems as if you are inventing a conflict where there is none.

[MaxPowerPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Before Jesus, were all people sent to Heaven?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
Or were they all sent to Hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[ QUOTE ]
If they were all sent to Heaven, then why would God send Jesus down? Why create this opportunity for people to go to Hell? Also, if they were all sent to Heaven, then who if not humans were in Hell before Jesus?

[/ QUOTE ]

Justification is where God declares that the righteous requirements of the law are satisfied for sinners on the basis of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. All who believe in Jesus have their sins imputed to Christ (they are crucified with him) and his righteousness is imputed to the believer. Our faith is counted as righteousness. Those in the Old Testament who beleive the promises of God had their faith counted as righteousness as well (Hebrews 11).

[ QUOTE ]
2. I was always told by my Christian friends that those who did not have an opportunity to find out about Christianity and therefore can't accept Jesus (such as indigenous peoples in remote areas) are given the benefit of the doubt and get to go to heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is simply not true. Romans 1 details the guilt of all of creation:

(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

(Rom 1:19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

(Rom 1:20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Creation reveals certain things about God (his eternal power and divine nature) so that we are all without excuse. So when someone who has not heard the gospel dies and goes to hell, they are going to hell because they are guilty. Also in Romans 10 it says this:

(Rom 10:13) For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

(Rom 10:14) But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

(Rom 10:15) And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!"

While creation reveals truths about God that leave us without excuse, the gospel alone is the power of God for salvation to all who believe.

[Peter666]

"It only says that we can only entrust them to God's care."

No, it says much more than that. You cannot deny it because the exact quote is directly above. It explicitly states that we can hope for the salvation of unbaptized children. NO WE CAN'T.

[Peter666]

I don't understand what you think is invalid.

I agree that there is probably a Limbo. Limbo is not Heaven. The good old Baltimore Catechims taught that this is where the unbaptized children go upon death. The CCC does not. It says we can hope unbaptized children go to heaven, and avoids the discussion of limbo altogether: heresy.