Crazy's at 20-40

DJA · #1 06-20-2003, 11:24 AM

Here is the situation...

Last night I was playing 20-40 online at Paradise... and I saw something for the first time. There was a true maniac at the table who, given the opportunity would, 4 bet anything pre-flop. On the flop it didn't seem to matter where he stood, he would probably 4 bet that too, and on the turn if he had any remote chance of winning, he would also 4-bet. Any chance of winning could be defined as any pair or any draw, even a gut shot.

Incidently, he hit for about $2000 in 7 minutes. He then would slowed down for about 3 hands and started over. When I left the table he was still up about $1500 after about an hour.

There was another limiting factor... there was a worse player then him on the table... a true calling station. Not quite but he probably called 4 bets 30% of the time.

Here is my question... what do you try to isolate him with... It was getting to 4 bets almost like a religion pre-flop because he would raise and someone would re-raise to try and isolate. If an opponent will truly 4 bet with ANY random hand what do you wait for? Also remember 30% of the time you will have the calling station along for the ride.

I wussed out with KK 1 hand, but I just didn't understand what he was capable of I guess. I had KK and it was 4 bet before the flop and luckily this was one of calling stations hands. On the flop there was a 2 flush, and nothing much else... definitely no A. It was capped again and we lost calling station. On the turn the flush completed and the maniac bet into me. What do you do? I raised and was re-raised... This is where I wussed out. I didn't have the K of the suit, but I still had an over pair. In hind site he would re-raise with anything... a pair any singleton of the suit... ANYTHING. I just called. He bet into on the river and I just called. He had K6o for a pair of 6's, he didn't even have a flush draw. How could I let him off that easy?

Here is the next situation I witnessed. It started becoming a calling station fest. I mean 4 or 5 people in for 2 to 4 bets pre-flop... There were a couple of times I got into a pot with AK or AQ and took down say 1 of the 2, but I didn't get many opportunities against the maniac because everyone started playing like crap.

When I left the table our average pot size was something like $750 and there were 21 people on the waiting list.

What hands would you 3 bet here knowing it will get 4 bet, and there may be calling station in there? I took a little flack for only playing like AQ or better... which wasn't true... But I didn't want to 3 bet with A9 from early position and get re-re-raised from someone with the real hand.

What do you do?

Erudito · #2 06-20-2003, 11:40 AM

Sun Tzu said something like this: if you know yourself and you know your enemy, then the outcome of each battle has been defined. If you know yourself and don't know your enemy, then each victory will be followed with a defeat. If you don't know yourself and your enemy, then you are doomed.
There's no fast rules about the type of hands to play against the maniac because he can play and raise with anything. Therefore, you should really focus on the calling station. What type of hands he is most likely to call or fold?

DJA · #3 06-20-2003, 11:56 AM

Actually, it worked very similar to this...

I took him down with KK, lost with AQ against his JJ when he flopped a set and I didn't improve. I took him down with AK and ...

The important thing that I found, is that I lost less then he did. So I was a big winner and small (actually big but not as big) loser... I got lucky on my AQ loss because he raised I 3 bet and like 4 other people called and of course it was 4 bet... so when I missed I gave up against so many opponents... btw that pot was like $1300.

So that Sun Tzu guy had some good things to say.

Just My Thoughts,

elysium · #4 06-20-2003, 03:40 PM

hi dja
play solidly with big cards to the CO, tending to fold if you don't flop solidly, but tending call if it gets short-handed. on the button, loosen up considerably when a lot of opponents will be seeing the flop. calling a raise with 54s on the button isn't out of the question.

forget about raisng to get HU. no one will allow it against this type of aggressive; but of course, if the rest are weak tigt and will allow HU (rare) then raise him with ATo.

DJA · #5 06-20-2003, 05:30 PM

At first it was going according to plan. Our maniac would raise and the first guy with a hand would re-raise and everyone would leave them alone.

However, the maniac just kept hitting +$2000 in 7 minutes. One hand he capped pre-flop with 8c6c flopped a gut shot, and of course capped the flop... Missed his gutshot on the turn, so he capped it, and low and behold 7h on the river... it was capped on the river as well. That is a lot of bets to lose heads up with AA.

I thought the AA played poorly on the river capping the action, but then I saw the guy 3 bet the river with middle pair. So in this case a cap would have been appropriate.

I made a good profit in the hour I was able to stay in the game, but I had a lot of variance. In that hour I was up over $1200 and cashed out only up about $700. Not a bad hour, but I sure wish I would have quit 10 minutes earlier.

It started going sideways when I 3 bet with AQ against our maniac and like 3 people called 3 bets cold. I mean I like AQ heads up, but I am probably not going to win against 5 other opponents. I am glad they all called though because our maniac flopped a set of J's, and I would have probably called him down with A high if we had been heads up.

Just My Thoughts,