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#21
11-15-2005, 12:00 PM
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Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
[ QUOTE ]
The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr, [/ QUOTE ] When an overaggressive player raises UTG and is coldcalled in many spots, if you don't 3-bet PF, don't you think that the ability to bet-3bet an Ace-high or King-high flop will not only be incredibly profitable, and likely to eliminate some (depending on quality) drawing hands, but also incredibly likely? Everyone seems to be thinking that if we call PF we have to c/r, but I think a bet-3bet will actually be a line that we can exploit quite frequently with great success given the profile on UTG with a favorable flop. Rob 
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#22
11-15-2005, 12:08 PM
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Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr, [/ QUOTE ] When an overaggressive player raises UTG and is coldcalled in many spots, if you don't 3-bet PF, don't you think that the ability to bet-3bet an Ace-high or King-high flop will not only be incredibly profitable, and likely to eliminate some (depending on quality) drawing hands, but also incredibly likely? Everyone seems to be thinking that if we call PF we have to c/r, but I think a bet-3bet will actually be a line that we can exploit quite frequently with great success given the profile on UTG with a favorable flop. Rob [/ QUOTE ] This is a good point, but on the same note an over aggro will also 4-bet this preflop at a fair clip, thus building a huge pot for us where we have a decent edge.
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#23
11-15-2005, 12:39 PM
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Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr, [/ QUOTE ] When an overaggressive player raises UTG and is coldcalled in many spots, if you don't 3-bet PF, don't you think that the ability to bet-3bet an Ace-high or King-high flop will not only be incredibly profitable, and likely to eliminate some (depending on quality) drawing hands, but also incredibly likely? Everyone seems to be thinking that if we call PF we have to c/r, but I think a bet-3bet will actually be a line that we can exploit quite frequently with great success given the profile on UTG with a favorable flop. Rob [/ QUOTE ] This is a good point, but on the same note an over aggro will also 4-bet this preflop at a fair clip, thus building a huge pot for us where we have a decent edge. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think you're getting 4-bet often enough by hands that you have a huge edge against, unless by "overaggro" he can translate it to "maniac." Rob
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#24
11-15-2005, 12:46 PM
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Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The thing with this hand is the way you are going to make up the extra value postflop is going to come from check raising the field on the flop given the relative position of the pfr, [/ QUOTE ] When an overaggressive player raises UTG and is coldcalled in many spots, if you don't 3-bet PF, don't you think that the ability to bet-3bet an Ace-high or King-high flop will not only be incredibly profitable, and likely to eliminate some (depending on quality) drawing hands, but also incredibly likely? Everyone seems to be thinking that if we call PF we have to c/r, but I think a bet-3bet will actually be a line that we can exploit quite frequently with great success given the profile on UTG with a favorable flop. Rob [/ QUOTE ] This is a good point, but on the same note an over aggro will also 4-bet this preflop at a fair clip, thus building a huge pot for us where we have a decent edge. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think you're getting 4-bet often enough by hands that you have a huge edge against, unless by "overaggro" he can translate it to "maniac." Rob [/ QUOTE ] Even if we don't have a huge edge against UTG if he caps I think we can agree that we likely have a large edge against the 4 cold callers.
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#25
11-15-2005, 02:03 PM
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Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
Hi Joker,
Being that you only called preflop, I would have folded the flop and stayed out of trouble. However, by calling the flop, I would have definitely bet out the turn and called a raise and check/called the river. I don't see a reason to get all frisky in a large pot. You need to make sure it's bet. A turn bet may also fold a small one card flush should UTG1 and/or SB have something like Jx9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. If your opponents don't have a flush already, it can look utterly frightening, as if you slowplayed the flop to trap callers, then realized that it's 3-way and it's time to wrap things up. UTG1 probably flopped a flush. The key here is that you called the flop and then FOUND what you're looking for. How can you bet/fold the river, rather than what I recommended in the previous paragraph?
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#26
11-15-2005, 02:12 PM
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Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
I would never fold on the river here, especially against a guy you describe as aggro. If you know this guy is aggressive and you are going to fold to a rasie, why didn't you check and call here for that same one bet which was wasted??
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#29
11-15-2005, 03:39 PM
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Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
I think the river is a really, really necessary call, in my opinion.
Pre-flop is whatever and Rob's discussion of why not raising here is not only convincing but is of considerable theoretical interest and should be noted not only for how it applies here but for its general merit relating pre-flop and flop play. I personally think the flop call is actually a lot thinner than people are making it out to be but with probably 4 outs or so effectively I can't see folding being a decent option as we're almost closing the action. Turn is sweet.
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#30
11-15-2005, 04:03 PM
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Re: I fail to raise AKo from the BB
pj, I have to say I think the river fold is not good, unless there's some more read available that we didn't get. You have to put UTG+1 pretty much exactly on TT or AT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to make this fold, yes? He 3-bets AK [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], QQ, and JJ preflop, right?
I would probably raise preflop, but if there were ever a time not to, this would be it, so I don't really care. I also fold the flop, not because I don't like my ~4 outs, but because I hate my RIO if I hit and I'm already dead or I hit and make someone a better hand, like my overs fill their straight or make them 2 pair.
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