Get to showdown more? Prove it. - Page 2

SomethingClever · #11 08-15-2005, 03:10 PM

Here are a few folds. Anyone play these differently?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $3.
Hero raises, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, CO folds.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.16 BB

Note: In the following hand, I was planning to raise the turn.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, BB calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.16 BB

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks... and calls?

luckyharr · #12 08-15-2005, 05:51 PM

This is just a thought. Calling down is one way to raise your WTSD%. What about inducing bluffs? My WTSD% is higher than and my aggression factors on all streets are lower compared to all stat posts in this forum. Coaxing turn and/or river bets from players who wouldn't have called one bet is an important skill. Certainly my WTSD% is higher than yours because I call down more but it's also because I'm inducing more bets from weak hands on the turn and river instead of allowing them to make an easy fold.

SomethingClever · #13 08-15-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is just a thought. Calling down is one way to raise your WTSD%. What about inducing bluffs? My WTSD% is higher than and my aggression factors on all streets are lower compared to all stat posts in this forum. Coaxing turn and/or river bets from players who wouldn't have called one bet is an important skill. Certainly my WTSD% is higher than yours because I call down more but it's also because I'm inducing more bets from weak hands on the turn and river instead of allowing them to make an easy fold.

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That's a possibility.

My aggression is like 3.2, 2.7, 1.85, which seems pretty normal around here, though.

luckyharr · #14 08-15-2005, 06:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is just a thought. Calling down is one way to raise your WTSD%. What about inducing bluffs? My WTSD% is higher than and my aggression factors on all streets are lower compared to all stat posts in this forum. Coaxing turn and/or river bets from players who wouldn't have called one bet is an important skill. Certainly my WTSD% is higher than yours because I call down more but it's also because I'm inducing more bets from weak hands on the turn and river instead of allowing them to make an easy fold.

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That's a possibility.

My aggression is like 3.2, 2.7, 1.85, which seems pretty normal around here, though.

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I think you're probably still above the norm though. Admittedly, I'm a 30/20 type and I get caught postflop with a lot of weak holdings where I can't find value in betting or raising, but calls or check/calls are warranted.

SomethingClever · #15 08-15-2005, 10:09 PM

Couple more hands.

wow this really blows donkeys. guy was playing back at me a lot... hence the flop raise.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Call this??????????

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, SB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 5 BB

I can feel my wtsd getting higher, yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, MP calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

omg i never know when to call with A high.... help me

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

call this shizzle?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Button calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (5 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Danenania · #16 08-15-2005, 11:03 PM

Hand 1: raising the flop does nothing. I'd just call down. The way you played it I don't like the river bet.

Hand 2: totally read dependent, but it could easily be a call. I would usually bet the turn.

Hand 3: looks good.

Hand 4: always bet the turn.

Hand 5: again very read based. Folding is a good default.

crockpot · #17 08-16-2005, 12:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For example:

.32 x .54 = .1728. 17.28% of the time when you play a hand you get to showdown and win.

How about 36% SD% but only 50% W$SD (which is close to my stats, so this is where I'm getting it from)

.36 x .50 = .18 When I play a hand I take it to showdown and win 18% of the time or so. 0.7% adds up over tens of thousands of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

this math is bogus. if you are only dealt winning hands 20% of the time, it is much better to have a 20% SD% and a 100% W$SD, than vice versa. according to your equations, those two stat lines come out the same.

in your example, assuming your playing styles are the same, you're adding in 0.7% of hands where you win a pot, but 3.3% where you lose a pot. you should still come out ahead, but not by nearly as much as you suggest.

mperich · #18 08-16-2005, 12:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: raising the flop does nothing. I'd just call down. The way you played it I don't like the river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop here gets you to showdown for 1sb cheaper, sometimes may fold a better hand (I know, pretty much never, but 1/100 is better than nothing.) Also gains you a SB when you hit an ace before the river. Also gains you a SB if he doesnt follow thru on a semibluff on the river. Basically, I like raising here fairly often, unless he is aggro and will 3bet a fair amount.

Not betting the river here is a mistake here as well. He obviously doesnt have a ten, a jack would PROBABLY give more action, but who knows..but still i think you see a 5, or maybe an ace a fair amount of the time here. Also 89, or maybe even other random junk.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: totally read dependent, but it could easily be a call. I would usually bet the turn.

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Agree, I bet turn 100% of the time here.

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Hand 3: looks good.

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Agree. Sometimes i just call flop also.

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Hand 4: always bet the turn.

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Agree 100%

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Hand 5: again very read based. Folding is a good default.

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Again, agree.

-Mike

Danenania · #19 08-16-2005, 12:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop here gets you to showdown for 1sb cheaper, sometimes may fold a better hand (I know, pretty much never, but 1/100 is better than nothing.) Also gains you a SB when you hit an ace before the river. Also gains you a SB if he doesnt follow thru on a semibluff on the river. Basically, I like raising here fairly often, unless he is aggro and will 3bet a fair amount.

Not betting the river here is a mistake here as well. He obviously doesnt have a ten, a jack would PROBABLY give more action, but who knows..but still i think you see a 5, or maybe an ace a fair amount of the time here. Also 89, or maybe even other random junk.

[/ QUOTE ]

1.) OP says the villain has been playing back at him a lot. I take this to mean that a flop raise will be 3-bet a good bit of the time, both by legitimate and non-legitimate hands. I think this threat negates the possibility of a 1 SB cheaper showdown or any small amount of extra value.

2.) Per the river bet, looking at it again I agree with your assessment and I now like a bet best. You're right that we would have seen more action from a J or T.

kiddo · #20 08-16-2005, 01:02 AM

1)
If your default play in hands like the first one is to call if someone bets into you, u got a problem that got nothing to do with WTSD. If it is a rock, u raise and take a free card, if it isnt u raise and bet turn.

2)
All the hands u give example of are without any reads on your opponents. Do u have reads but dont give us them? U will never survive long at a higher limit without good reads that u act on. (Everyone got reads theses days with playerview and such, but how to act on them is a different thing)