theory post, playing in passive predictable games of 100+BB

[JooWish622]

"This is true - but have you ever been in one of those games where there's never a raise preflop, and you're (usually) the best post-flop player? It sucks when you start being aggro preflop and it changes the dynamics of the game enough so that it's no longer cheap to see flops. I like to give up EV if I feel that doing my standard aggro preflop game hurts the dynamic of the game itself (where I'll have a larger edge postflop for low risk). Thoughts? "
-Gomberg, referring to straight-foward passive games (full ring?)

Hello, this is an idea I've been thinking about for a while. I've also been thinking about how at low levels (2-4 NL, 3-6 NL), some ppl play so poorly postflop (no idea to not go broke with marginal holdings and they inflate the pot with vulnerable hands OOP (ie medium two pair), that I feel like it might be profitable to limp into pots in late position with hands like 44 and 79s instead of raising. Do you think this applies to 6-handed games or are the blinds going too fast that you just have to make a raise in late position with these holdings. I feel like if you nut peddle for cheap in these passive, straight-foward games, limping into a lot of pots is likely more profitable. Thoughts? My main question is about limping into pots late position with marginal holdings that you could play big pots with like 79s or 33. I still feel like one should raise with 88 or TQs. Anyone suggest a mixed frequency of raising with these latter hands? I feel like I may be raising too much, id say about 75-90 percent when I get these in single limped or unopened pots.

[cero_z]

Hey Joowish,

Very good question. In the smaller live games (5-10 and down), I make it my mission to encourage lots of limping and little raising (too many ways to do this to list here), and it seems like it would translate fine in passive online games as well. In the 10-25 games and higher, players are usually too aggressive and sophisticated to do this, and you get one of those situations where if all the good players shut down their raising, they'd all probably benefit, but nobody wants to be the one to sacrifice EV first.

I can see a couple of problems with this approach on the internet, though: it's tougher to get a read on people if you're constantly in unraised multi-way pots with them, and they're hidden behind a computer screen. In live games, I feel like looking at/listening to bad players gives me as much info as their betting actions, so it makes little difference. But online, it's pretty hard to tell sometimes if the guy has a really big hand, or has just decided to push really hard for some other reason.

Another problem is that the online games I play in are frequently too aggressive overall for me to cool them down. People just won't cooperate by limping, so I take a different route (constant raising).

And finally, the money is not generally as deep in online games, so you have less to gain by the total deception constant limping offers.

[BobboFitos]

cero,

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I make it my mission to encourage lots of limping and little raising (too many ways to do this to list here)

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This intrigues me... As I've started to move up to bigger live games I do alot of pf raising (what I'm used to from small and mid-ish stakes) and of course, I start to get popped back - alot - by the better players. I was going to post a question on "how do I avoid this," because I normally shell up and limp a little more and fold a little more. Or call more of the pf raises oop w/ a hand I probably shouldn't be there with. Of course this doesn't help my game.

Anyway - you said too many ways to mention, but is it actual game play or table talk or demeanor or something?

[fimbulwinter]

frfe

[gomberg]

Cero,

It doesn't happen often, but when I'm in an online 6-max 5-10 game and everyone is already passive. I see about 50% of flops and almost NEVER raise preflop. These are the most profitable tables for me and my stack usually slowly climbs up and up. My hourly rate at those types of games is ginormous [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If you shut down most of your other tables and really concentrate on what the other players are doing postflop, you can get good enough reads to be profitable.

NOTE: I'm assuming the passive players play poorly postflop. If this isn't the case, I'll start raising more preflop.

[JooWish622]

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frfe

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huh?