A shania post

[elindauer]

Here's something to ponder...

Most people are familiar with the idea that it might just be possible to add some -EV hands to your mix and produce a game which has a higher EV than before you started. This possibility has always intrigued me, but I could never quite figure out any practical application of it.

Until just now.

My problem, I think, has been that I've always thought of adding hands that are just slightly -EV to the mix. Well, I don't think that raising AT UTG is going to suddenly spark my game. However, what if I add some hands that most players think are VERY -EV?

Hmmm... now that might have some interesting side effects. Naturally, against your typical multitabling TAG who is using some kind of stat tracker, I'm probably just giving away a bit of my edge. But what about the rest of the table?

Let's say that from now on, I raise 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] no matter what the action to me. I don't even have to take it that far... let's say I'll raise if no one has yet raised. What would happen?

Well, first, I'll win sometimes without showing. Then other times I'll catch and lay a nasty bad beat on someone. Still other times, I'll show it down and lose, either because I bluffed all the way, or because I made a 2nd best hand.

Every time I show the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] down, my opponents are going to notice. They are going to make little notes that say "maniac. raises any 2 preflop."...

Oops. They are going to give me way too much action. Bam. Shania improves.


I think the key to this concept is that the hand has to have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Obviously, you want to play a hand that doesn't cost you too much, but your opponents can't attribute you any solid thinking when they see the showdown. They have to see it and think, man, that guy sucks.


I'm considering adding two such plays to my arsenal. Some kind of goofy EP limp (reraise?) where I'll pick a particular hand, like the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and one open raise in MP, again with a particular hand. I'll change the actual choices randomly throughout the day, but I'll always know before the hand starts what cards are going to set off my backwards plays.

Any takers? Am I just giving away money?

-eric

I make the same play with 9-10 anytime i get it in early pos. I always raise, and i do this for the reasons you stated in the OP.

I think that it's worthy to add one or two hands like this to your mix, but make it a hand that has chance, i.e, not 6-4, IMO.

[newhizzle]

how would you go about randomizing the hands that you choose?

just have a list of crap hands or something and every hour or so or once you show one down, randomly pick a new one?

i think this is an interesting idea, how far postflop would you be willing to go?

like if you have very little chance of winning, will you be trying to push people off their hands if they show resistance?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I make the same play with 9-10 anytime i get it in early pos. I always raise, and i do this for the reasons you stated in the OP.

I think that it's worthy to add one or two hands like this to your mix, but make it a hand that has chance, i.e, not 6-4, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like we're thinking along the same lines, but my suggestion is slightly different. That is, raising T9 is obviously loose, and maybe that is all you need to do to convince your opponents that you are bad and get excess action. I assume you are not raising hands like JT, QJ, KJ, etc, right?

But there are 16 combinations of T9, and only one combination of 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Raising T9 is laggy, raising 62 is stupidly absurdly laggy. Which is better? You give up less equity per hand, but do it 16x more often... you get to show more often, which is good, but...

Well, food for thought. Thanks for the suggestion.

-eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
how would you go about randomizing the hands that you choose?

just have a list of crap hands or something and every hour or so or once you show one down, randomly pick a new one?

i think this is an interesting idea, how far postflop would you be willing to go?

like if you have very little chance of winning, will you be trying to push people off their hands if they show resistance?

[/ QUOTE ]

These are all excellent questions for which I would like suggestions. My first instinct is to play these rare hands hard, provided that you think the fold equity is at least close to being there. The added benefit of having the table think you are insane makes up for a lot of mistakes in this one rare hand.

-eric

[elindauer]

One other question... would you share your stats in EP for T9 and for all hands combined?

thanks.
eric

why do they have to be random? i.e., truly random? why can;t you just pick the hand? like K5s, or 10-8, whatever? do you see a benefit in it being a truly random hand or are you just using random as an expresion?

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
why do they have to be random? i.e., truly random? why can;t you just pick the hand? like K5s, or 10-8, whatever? do you see a benefit in it being a truly random hand or are you just using random as an expresion?

[/ QUOTE ]

well K5s or T8o is going to come up far more often than 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] exactly and if a very observant opponent sees you show down 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] exactly more than twice or so, they may catch on, choosing a random exact hand is a way of adding game thoery to your play(i think)

[teddyFBI]

iNTerting idea and something I"ve considered myself many times, but as far as i can tell, there's no point in completely randomizing the hands you do this with -- i mean: if you're going to pick a hand from UTG that you wouldn't play otherwise, you should at least pick one that has the most preflop equity -- maybe 22 or 78s or a suited K or Q.

[roy_miami]

I wouldn't do this online because I doubt it will be noticed enough to have the desired effect. For the most part your opponents are multitabling and using HUD to look at your PFR%, probably not looking at your notes. If I'm playing against someone tight with a PFR percentage of 7 and I see them raise 64o I will just pass it off as an anomaly. If your PFR % is 15 or 16 and I see you raise 64o from EP it may get you more action from me.

Live it may be a good strategy.