Really need help with this

[CallYNotRaise06]

Lets say i just started a session and im feelin great. the table is full of fish just waiting to hand over their money. and then bam the 3rd flush card comes on the river and he bets hard but i call with my top 2 pair. i say" o well what can you do he sucked out" but right there i start to feel bad. not bad because he made his draw, but i feel bad because i made a mistake that i know im better than.

but hey im still doin ok, i reload half my buy in and get back to it, cuz hey you know, theyre all fish, its easy money. Now i pick up AQ and raise it up, a LAG pushes reraises 4x my raise. it gets back to me i think for a second and push. he calls and has AK and i lose the buy in. now, i dont feel bad because i was "unlucky" to be against AK, i feel bad becasue i lacked the discipline(sP?)or skill to get away from the hand. sure hes a lag, but i could have played the hand much better. i guarantee you he would rerasie w/ more hand that beat my AQ than my AQ could beat. i know im good enough to make the correct move, but it just eats away at me when i make a donk play, or just make some instinctive/ not thought out play that wouldnt and couldnt work against these players.

i guess my question is do any of you get upset or "tilted" i guess, just becuase you make a mistake. it just really gets to me when i know im good enough to kill these guys but either i lack the discipline or just dont think and make a retarded play. does this happen to anyone else? how do you fix this huge leak? i really need replies here thanks.

And in a nutshell, that's why I don't play NL. I can't handle the swings. Losing 4-5 BB in a hand hurts. Losing 20BB makes me die a little inside.

[jb9]

[ QUOTE ]
it just really gets to me when i know im good enough to kill these guys but either i lack the discipline or just dont think and make a retarded play. does this happen to anyone else? how do you fix this huge leak? i really need replies here thanks.

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This definitely happens to me, and I won't say "I'm good enough" to do anything in poker until I stop doing things like this, because in my mind there is a big difference between playing well and knowing how to play well.

I recently had a conversation with a non-poker playing friend about this problem (making plays you know are mistakes). I told him that the biggest area I needed to improve on in my game is "execution, not understanding".

His response was "if you know the right move, why don't you just do it". Which was an obvious but great response because I had to explain to a non-poker player why I do stupid things even though I just finished telling him that the reason I'm a marginal winner instead of a solid winner is that I do stupid things.

So, I broke it down for him like this:

I play 2 or 3 tables at a time, so I see 120-180 hands an hour (150 to keep it simple). I have to make 150 preflop decisions (sometimes more than 1 decision if there is a raise after me), and then whenever I see a flop (~30-40 times) I can have multiple decisions to make before the hand is over.

I probably have to make ~220 decisions an hour while I'm playing -- 3 to 4 decisions a minute -- or 1 decision every 15-20 seconds. I probably get most of these right.

But sometimes I'll make 150 correct decisions in a row and then I'll lose my focus, or get annoyed, or get bored, or get angry, or get excited, or otherwise let my emotions cloud my judgment, or just not take the extra 3 or 4 seconds to think through a decision before making it so I fail to use the knowledge I have and then I make a mistake that I could have avoided had I successfully applied my understanding.

These mistakes, even if they happen only every 150 or 300 or 1000 decisions, can be enough to minimize or eliminate any edge I have against the other players.

After patiently listening to me make up this convoluted explanation for why I'm an idiot, my friend's response was "so what are you doing about this?" Which I guess is your question too.

I have no simple answer...

I'm working on it. I expect it to take a while. I expect improvement to be gradual.

My plan is to:
<ul type="square">[*]be honest with myself about when I do these things[*]not get mad at myself for making these mistakes[*]realize that I am making these mistakes because I lack the skills (control) to avoid them not because of some innate defect in myself[*]remember that it will take time to develop these skills[*]pause for a few seconds to reconsider all difficult/important decisions to try to ensure I've thought things through properly and am not letting my emotions control my thoughts[*]stop playing when it becomes clear that I'm not focusing or controlling my emotions and[*]do not start playing without being in a relaxed and focused state of mind.[/list]I'm not sure if this will work, but I really hope it does...

[revots33]

I'm guilty of this myself sometimes when I play NL ring games. The best advice I can give is to slow down, think, and try to make the best possible decision on EVERY hand you play.

I think the biggest leak for a lot of NL players (at least for me, although I usually play SNGs), is the crying call of a big bet on the river. Example: I flop top 2 pair. I bet hard cause I know the fish is on a flush draw. He calls on the flop even though he's not getting the odds. He calls another big bet on the turn. Flush card comes on the river. He makes a big bet. I KNOW my 2 pair is now no good. Everything in my bones tells me he hit his flush.

But maybe... he just has TPTK. Maybe he's bluffing. Maybe he has a lower 2 pair. So I call. Needless to say, he has the flush.

I've done this more times than I'd like to admit. Still working on it. And yes, a dumb mistake like that can lead to tilt, at least for me.

As someone else mentioned, in limit poker it's easy to call one bet on the river, so you don't run into these decisions as often. But then again, in limit your opponent often has correct odds to chase his flush. In NL, at least you can charge him a high price to chase.

[CallYNotRaise06]

see its not the downswings that make me upset. i understand that in poker, it will happen, theres no avoiding it. i mean just an hour ago i lost a tourney heads up KJ vs JT. that doesnt bother me, i made the best play i could, and thats all i can do. what makes me upset is when i make the mistake. i mean maby im to hard on myself because i think i have alot of potential, and i always keep pushing myself to get better and it just makes me mad when im makeing totally retarded plays that i know are wrong. like in that same tourney, i had top pair and the 3rd flush card came on the river. but i sitll called off half my stack to see his hand. its like maby i cant trust myself enough to make that laydown beause he MITE be bluffing.

heres my thinking on that hand: "o he mite be bluffing i should call" instead of" would this player bluff me in this situation? what does my top pair beat that he would bet with? will this call make me $ in the long run?"

either im just not thinking and acting to fast, or i just cant trust my judgement.

[CallYNotRaise06]

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I think the biggest leak for a lot of NL players (at least for me, although I usually play SNGs), is the crying call of a big bet on the river. Example: I flop top 2 pair. I bet hard cause I know the fish is on a flush draw. He calls on the flop even though he's not getting the odds. He calls another big bet on the turn. Flush card comes on the river. He makes a big bet. I KNOW my 2 pair is now no good. Everything in my bones tells me he hit his flush.

But maybe... he just has TPTK. Maybe he's bluffing. Maybe he has a lower 2 pair. So I call. Needless to say, he has the flush.

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this is exactly what my problem is.

[tongni]

Yes. As you find also that you get better and better you will experience this more and more because you come across many more marginal situations. The biggest source of my tilt comes from misplaying a hand where I knew the correct action and acted too fast or ignored my read.

When I started switching from TAG to LAG, I experienced tons of marginal situations and it was very easy for me to cross the line between aggressive play and tilt. Almost always it was because I felt I had made a big mistake. I think it's a big positive though, because this pride in your game allows you the ability to take it to the next level. I think about misplayed hands maybe a week after.

For what it's worth, I know a few poker players who experience the same thing. They are all pretty successful at 50/100 and above. If you have a high drive to win at poker and take great pride in your play there is really nothing that can stop you.

As for how to combat it, let me know because I could sure use it. I usually just really pissed off and sit with 1000 BB's on one table and 3bet the player that I hate the most. I've trained myself to quit once I notice that somehow my entire party account balance is on 1 table and has been that way for the last half hour. Oh well. Tilting is the new not tilting.

I know the problem because I do it too. I think, for me at least, there is an element of closure that I need to avoid.

The logic, if you can call it that, goes something like this. If I call then either he doesn't have it (very small chance) and I win or he does have it (very high chance) and I loose, I'm an idiot BUT I know for sure he had it. If I fold I never know, I can't congratualte myself on folding because I'm not certain he had it.

That thinking is all wrong, I know that, but some times I don't give myself that extra few seconds I need to remind myself of it at the table.

A similar problem is the pre-flop raise in NLHE games. I have say JJ and raise 4-6xBB. Villain instantly goes over the top all-in. This is a fold, more often than not my JJ is beat but if I act on instinct rather than thinking I call it. If I'm going to play JJ for my whole stack then put on some pressure and go all-in myself first if not then for pity sake get out when it looks like you are beat!!!

I have no real answer other than to take a few more seconds. For me it's acting on instinct rather than logic that's the problem.

sounds like your analysis is getting more to the point..
being too hard on yourself
trusting yourself

(What do these things come down to;
how do you feel about yourself?
are you trying to be perfect? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )

Anyway...
learning to trust your instincts, learning to feel what others are thinking etc. is different to analysing situations.
(we dont get taught this in school!!)

Analysing can be useful, but it only take's you so far, gives you context, whats relavant, what questions to ask youself at the poker table about what an opponent could be holding/doing etc.
but, as you probably know, what separates the really top players from the good players? - Feel.

- feel, tuned instincts, natural talent (or acquired knowledge thru lots of hard work), and creative, spontaneous plays,

Its a switch to a different way of playing.

next time you have a hunch, put someone on a hand or "feel it in your bones" that he's hit his flush!! just go with it.

How are you going to learn to play this way without making mistakes? - thats a vital part of how you learn, and it takes time.
You may even lose more in the beginning but if you want to learn to trust youself and develop your natural talents then invest in loss.

Listen, loosen up, go with your intuition - If for some reason you put someone on 2nd pair and you've only got top pair low kicker then call or raise, if you put someone on the flush, or slowplaying AA then fold, or if you think that if you make your bluff a little bigger (or smaller) he'll fold then try it.

When you get it right it feels great, when you get it wrong - laugh!! dont worry about it. Gradually, GENTLY you learn.

Its a long road, enjoy the ride.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[CallYNotRaise06]

thanks for all the great replies. (if anyone has more, keep them coming!!) theyre really making me think. thats really what i need right now. im taking some time off, and just thinkin about my game, why im losing, and how to keep getting better. thanks again.