JTo, how and when do you play it? (semi-stats)

[imported_Jim C]

Hello everyone, this post is inspired by the other offsuit discussion.

I've been in a horrid streak lately, which has inspired me to delve into my stats again. In particular, I've noticed that JTo is my single biggest losing hand (over 90,000 hands of 5/10-6 and 10/20-6), with 470 instances.

My VP$IP with JTo is 28%, PFR 19%. I am losing at 0.08 BB/hand (3rd worst per hand), but my monetary loss with this hand is my highest because I've played it so often.

I have been open-raising JTo from pretty much any position. At first I would open UTG, but lately I've passed this hand UTG and open-raised it in MP or later. I have never cold-called with JTo. I will call behind limpers with this hand.

What in the world is going on here? Incidently, J9o is a break-even had for me, but mostly I suppose because I don't play it: VP$IP of 5.88 (probably steals).

My 2nd-5th largest losers are:

A8o
A3o (unsuccessful steals, apparently)
Q9s
K2s (VP$IP of 6.25%, 160 times = very small sample)

I know that small sample size can be argued here. But after 90,000 hands, wouldn't one expect JTo to be at least somewhat profitable? What, if anything, may this indicate about larger defects of my game?

What is your criteria for playing this hand?

Best,

Jim

[kahntrutahn]

JTo: 1,255 times, 0.06 BB/Hand

VP$IP 56.65, PFR 28.37, One ColdCall (don't shoot! I think it was 6 players, Maniac UTGR, 2CC, Me CC on button with two 70+ VP$IPers in the blinds!)

POS/VP$IP/PFR/BBperHand --- Stats Filtered for 5-6 Players

Button: 65.64/33.74/0.08
CO: 62.79/43.6/0.24
MP: 31.54/18.79/0.22
UTG: 8.49/7.55/(0.02)


My 2-5 losers:

2) Q7s
3) T3s
4) Q5s
5) 83s

[IGMorton]

JTo is a miserable open raising hand from EP. the only people who will call your raise ususally have you outkicked. I fold it in EP and MP. From CO, if the blinds are tightish... i'll open raise it only because i have fold equity (not for high card strength). From the button, i'll over-limp after 2-3 players have limped or open-raise.

a quote from Nick Eisel's poker pages articles:

[ QUOTE ]
These last three hands (QJ, QT, JT) aren't really playable in the offsuit variety unless you're in one of the two blinds or the guy in the big blind is exceptionally tight and you think a raise will steal his blind most of the time. You also do this with the understanding that if he does play, you have to be very careful and able to fold a pair after the flop if he plays back at you since you will usually be out kicked.

[/ QUOTE ]

take a look at the win rates for these hands. this stats are for all game levels. the stats are skewed towards the higher volume of micro-limit games, where more people see a flop. so, the winrates with a hands like JTo, which does better with more players per flop, will be significantly lower in a tighter game. so, if you can't make money with that hand in general (the numbers below), you are even less likely to be making money with it in an agressive 10/20 game:

http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta....php?players=6

[ArturiusX]

Thats very weak tight thinking. Outkicked isnt JTo major problem.

[IGMorton]

re: weak tight thinking...

i play a 26/19 game.... i wouldn't call myslef weak or overly tight. but thanks for the constructive criticism.

re: outkicked...

every poker book / author i have ever read assesses JT as a drawing hand. this is a hand that derives most of it's strength from it's ability to make a straight. the lack of having a good kicker makes it a very difficult hand to play when you flop a pair. it is the sort of hand you want to play in multiway pots, not 3 way against guys with hands that were strong enough to call your PFR.

if you have some more insight, why not share it rather than simply stating that someone else's ideas are wrong?