Married to AK?....do you lay this down?

[Leaky Game]

I laid it down on the river. Villian left shortly after so I never really got a read on him.

Kurto, let's say you stay in here with 98s, you hit middle pair and a flush draw. I bet 2/3s into you and I'm the pf raiser. You've got 14 outs but even if you hit one of them on the turn, it's no guarantee that you win the hand as I might 4 flush you or spike another Ace on the river. (this is assuming my Ace was the right suit) Is this really worth calling preflop when this is almost the best situation you can ask for even with two people with deep stacks? I understand when there are a few more callers with decent stacks but with only 2 it seems a bit -EV, no? Say I raised pf with Kings or Queens, I'm shutting down after my continuation bet anyway most likely so you're winning even less. So by staying in with the mid SCs, you're banking that you hit the flop and one of us two hits it well enough to pay you off fairly large. Seems like a real longshot that isn't worth chasing 4x with only 2 callers. This probably went as well as could be expected post flop for him and he ended up with 11x the pf raise. I can't imagine this play is going to pay off for him 1 out of 10 times this big and even if he hits the flop, he might end up losing to something larger.

I'm just trying to understand the logic behind the pf call.

[theredpill5]

Good fold. You can't call that. YOu shouldn't even be considering calling that in my opinion. If you bluffed you, oh well but the majority of the time, you will lose money in that situation. Good fold even if he bluffed you.

[subzero]

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...Kurto, let's say you stay in here with 98s, you hit middle pair and a flush draw. ... I'm just trying to understand the logic behind the pf call.

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What your trying to do is trap an opponent who has a big stack. With a suited connector like 98s, you're looking for a big flop like two pair or something like 992 or 88T. With a small pair like 44, you're hoping to flop a set. You make the preflop call for a few reasons:

1. You're opponent has a big stack (giving you implied odds)
2. You're opponent probably has a good hand and he may not be able to lay it down (giving you a good chance to get action).
3. You have deception. If you have 43s and you call his preflop raise, it'll be hard for him to think that the 447 flop helped you.

Another great thing about playing suited connectors is that you can easily get away from your hand if you don't hit the flop. Check out these two articles:

Suited Connectors
section on "Trapping Hands"

[kurto]

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Kurto, let's say you stay in here with 98s, you hit middle pair and a flush draw. I bet 2/3s into you and I'm the pf raiser. You've got 14 outs but even if you hit one of them on the turn, it's no guarantee that you win the hand as I might 4 flush you or spike another Ace on the river. (this is assuming my Ace was the right suit) Is this really worth calling preflop when this is almost the best situation you can ask for even with two people with deep stacks?

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Actually, the best you can hope for is to flop the nut straight on a rainbow board.

There's a lot of flops I would play with an 8-9suited. I could flop 2 pair, trips, flush draw, straight draw (or the monster draw: a flush draw WITH an OESD).

If I'm headsup, I'm not worried about the other guy having a flush. Sure it happens once in a long while, but not enough that I'm worried someone's going to get runner runner for the flush.

Ideally with suited connectors, you really want to get the top straight.

"Is this really worth calling preflop when this is almost the best situation you can ask for even with two people with deep stacks?" I think you're being pessimistic. And perhaps a little bit of a nut peddler? If I'm heads up and I flop an 8 high flush, I would be thrilled to put my whole stack in. If you make the best hand (the flush) on the turn, you can't expect another suited card to fall on the river and counterfeit your hand.

Realize that (1) you're not just playing cards, you're playing position (2) you're playing a hand that others can't put you on... most tight raisers, you can put them on a range of hands... but noone can put you on a hand. (3) you're also playing the man NOT the cards (how many times have you won a pot with a bet when you were certain the other guy had you beat? If the answer is never, then you're missing out on a lot of the game.) (4) to repeat; you can flop a lot of strong hands with suited connectors. I'm not saying you put your stack in with just a pair. (though I've stacked many an AK with low pairs when I know they were too married to their AK)

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I understand when there are a few more callers with decent stacks but with only 2 it seems a bit -EV, no?

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Again... the number of players is less important then the stack sizes. In limit, the #of players is key, because the number of players determines how much can go in the pot per round. But with NL, since one can bet any amount, the implied odds of the stack sizes is more important.

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Say I raised pf with Kings or Queens, I'm shutting down after my continuation bet anyway most likely so you're winning even less

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Most people don't do that. If I have 7-8 suited, a tight aggressive player opens to 4xbb with pocket kings. I call. The flop comes,

5-6-9 rainbow.... I'd bet 2/3 of the players out there are going to give me at least half their stack.

There are enough players who will give away all their money with an unimproved AK.

Now, Let's say the board flops... 5-6-K... Now the villain has topset. He's got the nuts. What do many players do here? The slowplay. They give me cheap card. If I get my straight, again, I will get their entire stack.

And if I miss the flop with my 7-8, I'm not stuck wondering if my "AK is any good." I can fold and move on.

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So by staying in with the mid SCs, you're banking that you hit the flop and one of us two hits it well enough to pay you off fairly large.

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Actually, if you miss entirely and I hit (with an AK) you'll pay me with your continuation bet. If I call, you might pay me off again with a turn bet.

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Seems like a real longshot that isn't worth chasing 4x with only 2 callers.

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What do you mean longshot?
Do you realize if I have 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] vs A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - the winning percentages are: AK 52% vs 78s 48%.

a mid suited connector will beat an overpair 25% of the time.

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This probably went as well as could be expected post flop for him and he ended up with 11x the pf raise. I can't imagine this play is going to pay off for him 1 out of 10 times this big and even if he hits the flop, he might end up losing to something larger.

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I don't agree. First off; he may have had nothing. He may have played YOU. Second, I am continually surprised by how many people will pay you off when its clear they are losing. You can't assume because you got away from the hand, that others will.