extracting value from strong draws

[c_strong]

Wow, thanks guys for all the input. A lot of food for thought there.

[poincaraux]

Ha! I read the post and the first replies and was about to post the *exact* same hands for comparison. A couple of other things: if he has A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] you're still 65%. If a blank falls on the turn (yeah, I know .. it's hard to pick a card that really looks like a blank to the villain), you're still close to 50% against TPTK-type hands.

Calculating the equities in a few hands like this changed my game significantly. Hopefully for the better [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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when you raise with a coin flip, you pretty much always want people to fold.

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I think this is a pretty simple, yet important point about NL Hold Em that many players either don't understand or recognize.

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I generally like to bet and raise strong draws on the flop to win the pot if possible, maybe get a free card on the turn and disguise my hand if I hit.

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IMHO this gives your hand away a lot of the time and makes it difficult to get paid off when you hit.

[Moozh]

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when you raise with a coin flip, you pretty much always want people to fold.

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I think this is a pretty simple, yet important point about NL Hold Em that many players either don't understand or recognize.

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I agree that if you're in a 50/50 situation, you want your opponent to fold. With the extra overlay the pot is laying your opponent, it would be corret for him to call any bet from you. Since it would be correct for him to call, you stand to win less money if he does. Thus, you want a fold.

In this situation, I do not see how it can be considered a coinflip so easily. There is a vast hand range out there that you are beating soundly. On the flop you are likely ahead and at worst only very slightly behind. That is a very profitable situation for you.

[FreakDaddy]

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I generally like to bet and raise strong draws on the flop to win the pot if possible, maybe get a free card on the turn and disguise my hand if I hit.

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IMHO this gives your hand away a lot of the time and makes it difficult to get paid off when you hit.

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Actualy it's quite the opposite. Think about it. Let me know what you come up with.

[bkholdem]

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I generally like to bet and raise strong draws on the flop to win the pot if possible, maybe get a free card on the turn and disguise my hand if I hit.

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IMHO this gives your hand away a lot of the time and makes it difficult to get paid off when you hit.

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Actualy it's quite the opposite. Think about it. Let me know what you come up with.

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I was under the impression that people didn't defend their positions with reasonded arguments when they are challenged in this forum. I thought they just didn't reply, backpeddled, or simply changed their position without ever admitting they may have been mistaken. Can't wait for mid stakes..

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I generally like to bet and raise strong draws on the flop to win the pot if possible, maybe get a free card on the turn and disguise my hand if I hit.

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IMHO this gives your hand away a lot of the time and makes it difficult to get paid off when you hit.

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Actualy it's quite the opposite. Think about it. Let me know what you come up with.

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I was under the impression that people didn't defend their positions with reasonded arguments when they are challenged in this forum. I thought they just didn't reply, backpeddled, or simply changed their position without ever admitting they may have been mistaken. Can't wait for mid stakes..

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BK-

I am really tired, just got back from AC--working on no sleep since Wednesday I guess--so I am not sure if you are referring to me or not.

Freak Daddy-

I don't know who you think you are to make such a post. If you think I am wrong, why don't you elaborate on why. That way, we can get a discussion going and hopefully the both of us and the rest of the posters in this forum can learn something.

Seriously, "think about it" and "let me know what you come up with"--give me a break.

[bkholdem]

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I generally like to bet and raise strong draws on the flop to win the pot if possible, maybe get a free card on the turn and disguise my hand if I hit.

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IMHO this gives your hand away a lot of the time and makes it difficult to get paid off when you hit.

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Actualy it's quite the opposite. Think about it. Let me know what you come up with.

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I was under the impression that people didn't defend their positions with reasonded arguments when they are challenged in this forum. I thought they just didn't reply, backpeddled, or simply changed their position without ever admitting they may have been mistaken. Can't wait for mid stakes..

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BK-

I am really tired, just got back from AC--working on no sleep since Wednesday I guess--so I am not sure if you are referring to me or not.

Freak Daddy-

I don't know who you think you are to make such a post. If you think I am wrong, why don't you elaborate on why. That way, we can get a discussion going and hopefully the both of us and the rest of the posters in this forum can learn something.

Seriously, "think about it" and "let me know what you come up with"--give me a break.

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If you raise strong on the flop you could have a good hand, a strong hand, a draw, or a strong draw. So when the draw hits and you continue to play strong your opponent doesn't know if you are continuing to play strong because you hit your draw so your hand improved, or you are continuing to play strong because you have the same hand you had before and still think it is good/or are now scared of draws completing.

If you just call the flop and get two callers behind you, then the flush card falls and you all of a sudden come to life rather than checking becasue you are afraid of the flush like the other players plan to do everyone is more likely to put you on the flush.

So you make my decisions much easier when you check/call with your draws and bet/raise with your made hands. Might as well play with your cards face up at that point.

So the way freakdaddy plays it, raising the flop, he could force a better flush draw to fold behind him. He could also force the same straight draw to fold behind him. By flat calling the flop Ax flush draw is for sure calling behind you Ness. Then when you hit your flush and raise the turn and someone calls what do you do then?

Or-

If the table is playing loose and I have a small flush draw and decide to call freak daddys raise on the flop because I think there will be multi way action and the flush card hits on the turn... Freak daddy bets and now I raise with my flush, I can't give him credit with the flush when it hits and I want anyone who happens to have a higher flush redraw to have to pay to see the river so I raise. Freak daddy gets that extra bet out of me. And he may get more out of me on the river if I don't know anything about how he plays.

The way you play it Ness...
I have a small flush draw so of course I call behind on the flop after you flat call. Then the flush card falls on the turn. 1st player checks because he is afraid that the flush just hit in the multiway pot. Now you bet rather than checking... jee I wonder what you have? Guess my small flush is no good.. Or maybe I just hit a higher flush and raise you. Now do you push?

[bkholdem]

I took the liberty to throw out a few thoughts/possibilities in support of freakdaddy's position. I am waiting for the explanation why your strategy is better Ness.