Late stage strategy--11s and 22s

Cactus Jack · #1 09-26-2005, 09:09 AM

After doing a lot of reading of the posts, I find I play a very different game from many of you. It seems many players push every chance they get. I do not.

In the later stages of the tourney, say the blinds are up around 100/200 with say 5 players left, I'm aggressively playing many more hands than I did earlier, and trying to steal as often as I can, not because I'm trying to build a large stack, but to keep chips out of the hands of my opponents, esp the shorter stacks. I want the blinds to put pressure on them.

But, when it comes bubble time or 3 handed, I change gears again. I'm looking to trap. In another thread, 4 left, the hand was AK in the SB and two people in for a limp and reraise. The general consensus was push the AK. I call. I'm looking to trap one or both for their whole stack and get ITM. If the flop comes A or K, that's exactly what I'll probably do.

If my opponents think I'm getting tight because on the bubble, good. If they think I'm weak/tight, all the better. If they think they can push me off a good hand, I'm delighted. I'm looking to win, not just accumulate chips. All I need is one or two opportunities to bust them, and that's what I'm looking for. Controlled aggression. Smart poker.

Am I wrong with this strategy?

CJ

#2 09-26-2005, 09:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
After doing a lot of reading of the posts, I find I play a very different game from many of you. It seems many players push every chance they get. I do not.

In the later stages of the tourney, say the blinds are up around 100/200 with say 5 players left, I'm aggressively playing many more hands than I did earlier, and trying to steal as often as I can, not because I'm trying to build a large stack, but to keep chips out of the hands of my opponents, esp the shorter stacks. I want the blinds to put pressure on them.

But, when it comes bubble time or 3 handed, I change gears again. I'm looking to trap. In another thread, 4 left, the hand was AK in the SB and two people in for a limp and reraise. The general consensus was push the AK. I call. I'm looking to trap one or both for their whole stack and get ITM. If the flop comes A or K, that's exactly what I'll probably do.

If my opponents think I'm getting tight because on the bubble, good. If they think I'm weak/tight, all the better. If they think they can push me off a good hand, I'm delighted. I'm looking to win, not just accumulate chips. All I need is one or two opportunities to bust them, and that's what I'm looking for. Controlled aggression. Smart poker.

Am I wrong with this strategy?

CJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling a raise on the bubble with AK is terrible.

AK is the exact hand you want to push. You are almost never an underdog, and if you are its only a slight one (coinflip).

If you plan on pushing any A or K flop, just push right now. You are going to be mad when buddy with QK suited goes allin on the 10 high flop and you are forced to fold.

If you arent pushing AK on the bubble, I am curious, what are you pushing??

the_joker · #3 09-26-2005, 09:29 AM

I agree with BlueTooth about AK on the bubble. You want to see all five cards with AK, not just the flop.

If you play like everyone else, then I guess you'll at most only be as profitable as everyone else, so trying new stuff is good. What's your ROI and how many tournaments have you played? Then I'll tell you if your strategy is wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

helpmeout · #4 09-26-2005, 09:37 AM

Remember players will freeze up if they see an ace and a king on the flop.

No reason for a low pair or KQ to call a large bet on the flop when they dont improve and the flop is scary.

Also when neither of you improve, you do not know where you stand but he has the initiative. So a hand like AT can win on the flop unimproved because he has initiative. Surely you arent going to call a large flop bet unimproved?

When an Ace flops you really only trap hands that you have dominated anyway that would likely call an allin bet preflop regardless.

GtrHtr · #5 09-26-2005, 09:46 AM

I think that generally, your strategy is fine. In your example, you need to calculate the value of AK. You will find that hands like AK are worth more pushing PF than playing post flop in the long run.

Cactus Jack · #6 09-26-2005, 09:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you arent pushing AK on the bubble, I am curious, what are you pushing??

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing. Or, it depends. I don't believe anyone can make a blanket statement about what they would do when much of what you will do depends on when you would do it. (Wow, that might be too convoluted.) The point of my strategy is that I don't hold with the all or nothing strategy I keep reading. Someone said, "tight early and pushin everything late will win at most levels." Push bot, or anything approaching a bot way of playing isn't how to get better, imho, which is the whole point of a forum, again, imho. Not the reason I participate, anyway.

Ok, so now I've confused myself. Hopefully, it will get sorted out as we go along. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

CJ

#7 09-26-2005, 10:00 AM

Your AK is a signifigant favorite over most hands, we'll generize this to 70%, by just calling a t600 raise you expect to gain a little more than 400. Or you can push in your 2000 stack and expect to win 1400 or so...the point is your passing up on ALOT of chips.

Cactus Jack · #8 09-26-2005, 10:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think that generally, your strategy is fine. In your example, you need to calculate the value of AK. You will find that hands like AK are worth more pushing PF than playing post flop in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. However, substitute KQ for AK. This would change the numbers, but not the philosophy. I see many guys who are pushing at times that make me scratch my head. I see guys pushing early for 90TC. I see players pushing so often that it no longer seems to be a thoughtful strategy at all. One time, a guy typed, "that works every time but the last time." Sure enough, he or I--don't remember which--busted the guy shortly when he pushed Jx or T9 and ran into AA. As long as I am above 8BB, I'm not pushing as a rule.

CJ

the_joker · #9 09-26-2005, 10:05 AM

I don't recall any strategy that says pushing everything. Some situations you may push any two cards, but pushing every hand late is obviously bad.

Cactus Jack · #10 09-26-2005, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't recall any strategy that says pushing everything. Some situations you may push any two cards, but pushing every hand late is obviously bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it possible to summarize strategies for late stages?

Weak--pray they knock each other out and happy with ITM
Tight--wait for good hands much like earlier levels and pray the LAGs knock each other out
Loose--push or fold
TAG--?

What I'm looking for is what is Smart TAG poker in the late stages.

CJ