Optimal Play

tripp0807 · #1 11-01-2005, 11:15 AM

Hi,

Initially, let me say that I am nowhere near a high stakes player, and for that reason, let me apologize if I should not be posting here. I am not looking at a specific hand, rather, I have a question for those people who are now successful high stakes players who have worked their way up from SSNL.

I'm a successful player at the upper-end of low stakes limit HE, i.e. 6-12, who is transitioning to cash NL games. I've also had success in MTT's, with a win in a 30+3 NL tourney with 761 entries.

What I'd like your opinion on is whether, in your opinion, there is such a thing as an optimal game plan that, if left unchanged, will succeed in full table cash NL games, regardless of stakes. I doubt I need to elaborate on this question, but for the sake of clarity, I'm wondering if I were to lurk on this board, and combine that with knowledge that I already have and experiences past and future, whether I would be able to begin to create a game plan that would succeed at any level.

Does that type of playing method exist, or is there too much of a difference between the levels?

Thanks for your time.

-Tripp

greg nice · #2 11-01-2005, 11:16 AM

if such existed, everyone would be doing it and there would be no money to be made. you need to learn to adapt to opponents.

TheWorstPlayer · #3 11-01-2005, 11:41 AM

You play limit, right? So can't you just answer this question for limit and then apply the same logic to NL? The obvious answer is that no such game plan exists. You think you can just do whatever you do to beat .10/.25 on Party and jump into the UB 50/100 games?

cero_z · #4 11-01-2005, 11:43 AM

Hi tripp,

Welcome to the forum. If by "optimal game plan," you mean a specific way to bet each hand, so you only have to use recall, as opposed to analysis, during the play of hands, then the answer is no, there is no such plan that will succeed at all limits. However, Ed Miller does outline a strategy that requires basically no thought, which will win in any good game, in his book Getting Started in Hold'em . If you want to learn NL, I think that book is a good place to start, as it answers some of the most basic questions people may be embarrassed to ask.

If, by optimal gameplan, you mean an strategic framework from which to base your decisions, then of course this is the place. Tight, aggressive (TAG) play will work at all limits; Loose, aggressive (LAG) play will, as well. This forum is an excellent place to learn the "advanced fundamentals" of NL. Hopefully, someone here will be nice enough to provide you with links to some essential posts, as I suck at doing that. I will suggest that you use the search feature, and look up posts by Tommy Angelo , Ray Zee , ML4L , limon, El Diablo, Matt Flynn, fsuplayer, etizzle, KaneKungFu123 , turnipmonster , coltrane, TheBruiser, Fossilman, cwl, etizzle, riverboatking , lapoker17, JasonStrassa , creedofhubris , and anyone else who gets suggested in this thread. The names in blue are probably where you'll find the clearest articulations of strong fundamental play; the ones in red are solid gold if you know what you're doing, but perhaps dangerous if not. All of these folks' posts should be studied, IMO, and I'm sure I've left off a bunch of phenomenal posters as well (I apologize to those guys; I always hate it when my name gets left off a list I think I deserve to be on--my list just came off the top of my head).

stigmata · #5 11-01-2005, 11:48 AM

Thanks for posting that, it's a damn useful list [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

cero_z · #6 11-01-2005, 11:48 AM

Hi TWP,

[ QUOTE ]
You think you can just do whatever you do to beat .10/.25 on Party and jump into the UB 50/100 games?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would answer yes to this question.

I don't know why you guys are jumping down this guy's throat; he asked a very reasonable question. I think what may bug you about the question is that the answer is the sum of what we do here in this forum; it's not like you can say, "Oh yeah, to beat NL, do this." It'd be more like, "Do this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this. And this.

PinkSteel · #7 11-01-2005, 11:54 AM

I'm guessing that by optimal game plan you mean one that is profitable not only independent of stakes, but independent of specific opponent knowledge as well.

I think Mike Caro has asserted generally that such an optimal strategy must exist; the question is whether it's knowable. Such a strategy almost certainly exists for chess as well, but it isn't yet fully known, and chess is open information and deterministic.

So the strategy for hold'em would wind up being not only probabalistic (in a given situation, different plays get made a certain % of the time) but immensely complex.

tripp0807 · #8 11-01-2005, 12:27 PM

Cero,

Thank you for understanding the nature of my question. I realize that the method that I'm seeking (if it even exists) is tremendously complex and, more than likely, unachievable. I did not venture to think that I could begin to beat $25 max Party and immediately jump into the biggest games.

Additionally, I appreciate all the other relevant feedback.

tripp0807 · #9 11-01-2005, 12:28 PM

Pink Steel,

Thanks - I think that's precisely what I was looking for.

TheWorstPlayer · #10 11-01-2005, 01:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hi TWP,

[ QUOTE ]
You think you can just do whatever you do to beat .10/.25 on Party and jump into the UB 50/100 games?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would answer yes to this question.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't really trying to 'jump down his throat' but I really don't see how the answer can be 'yes' to this question. Unless you mean 'assign hand ranges to your opponent based on his action, evaluate likely responses to various possible actions from yourself, and then determine the optimal action based on your assessment of his hand range and his likely response given each portion of that range'. Then I agree that you can do that at any level. But I meant things like "fold one pair hands to a raise". If you ALWAYS do that at NL25 on Party you can still make money. I doubt that is the case at shorthanded UB 50/100.