Too advanced thinking for 25NL?

[JeanieJ]

I've found the games VERY beatable, but with less varience than the party skins. Mostly I was hoping to clear some of the bonus I still have left from the WCOOP Promo, (not going so well at the 25nl but still clearing it with trnys).

[UOPokerPlayer]

$5 straight on the flop, as they will pay to see that club come off. When it does, I want to say check-fold, but that seems too weak tight. I just don't see any other way to play it. If you go $5 on the flop it's a 20 pot with 20 in your stack so it's either push or check-fold. I probably would just give up at that point. You're still behind a set or a stupid 2 pair also, thought it's probably a flush after 2 flat calls.

Just saw you have the flush draw. Doesn't change much, but makes me hurt more folding.

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I don't see why you are assuming/thinking that he would raise on the flush draw here. First, it's a mutliway pot and he's in position. Second, he's got some one, whom he's in position on, who is showing a bunch of strength.

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Because I honestly don't give my opponents this much credit. It IS 25NL and the majority of the players are not going to know as much about position as your typical 2p2er. I've noticed that people tend to think a raise means AKo AKs AQo AQs AJo/s etc... when I do have pockets pairs people are drawing for their overs.

I'm pretty sure my play was bad. 75% sure anyway, but I don't think he's push the flush. Wouldn't he want value out of it?

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as for the push, the pot was $21 and you only had 14 left. It doesn't seem that unreasonable to me, especially if he didn't have the nuts.

[Malachii]

Well, as long as you're kicking ass there, that's the important thing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

And it took me like 5k hands to clear that bonus, so good luck to you.

[JeanieJ]

Eh, I don't play ring games often at all. Though running real good the last few hours.

This bonus is crap though. Though I'm not complaining, free money is free money. I just hate having to wait to get it. Too used to Party and clearing it in one day!

[punter11235]

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Too advanced thinking for 25NL?

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For some reason I thought this was a bluff push. Generally a player at these limits will raise a flush draw on a flop like that, right? Am I giving him too much credit by assuming he would raise this flop with a flush draw? Calling this all-in is assuming he DOESN'T have the flush and is trying to bluff the pot....


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Its not advanced thinking. Assuming that players will always raise their flush draw is bad. Fold is clear here. You are beaten by everything players at 25NL can push here with and bluff in this situation is rare. I think its clear fold at every level I played so far (up to 1kNL). Too many hands bet you, str8, 2pair, even overpair is possible with only jacks. Fold and save your money.

[Mercman572]

i would have played it differently, although I fold to this push as well. Pot the flop, you have two opponents, if one calls your 2/3 bet the other is getting odds to as well on the FD. I 1/2 pot the river and fold to the push

[boondockst]

my rule for getting tricky on PP NL25:

No advanced thinking is required, especially with a 100BB or less stack in PP NL25 unless you have just some outstanding read on a player through extensive PT stats and are trying to make a move

I've played 30K hands at PPNL25 and while maybe I passed up a few opportunities, I could probably only come up with less than 20 times that I've used onlya read on a player/advanced thinking to make a move at a sizable pot/make a marginal call"

And i highly doubt I've ever taken any line on a hand because I thought an opponent in a NL25 game raised on a flush draw. Ok, I lied I did have one hand that's close to a flush/missed flush draw i somehow dredged up......

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Button ($31.30)</font>
SB ($22.41)
BB ($31.10)
UTG ($61.30)
MP ($24.45)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($49.64)</font>

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $0.5</font>, BB folds, MP calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, Button calls $2, SB calls $1.50, MP folds.

Turn: ($7.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, Button calls $10, SB calls $10.

River: ($37.75) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8</font>, Button calls $19.05 (All-In), SB folds, Hero calls $11.05.

Final Pot: $75.85

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 8d Jd (flush, jack high).
Button has 2h Ad (two pair, sevens and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $75.85. </font>

But maybe the idiot actually thought two pair with an ace kicker was good.....And this was one of the worst calls I've made at NL25 but I had that "feeling" everyone talks about....

[aces_full]

Poker Stars $25 NL full-ring is pretty weak/tight. I have learned the hard way that the average NL$25 player has neither the sophistication nor the balls to make grandstand bluffs against a player who has shown strength on multiple streets. Beleive me, I have been suckered into my share of $25 calls into $2 pots when I was sure he was "making a move" only to be shown the stone cold nuts. So now I play it more weak tight. If all I have is a pair, and I get C/R or raised, I'm giving my opponent credit for two pair or better and I will release my hand most of the time. My experience is that players will often call you down with better hands, but rarely will they raise you with less than two pair.

Another point to consider: If you are using PT look at villain's post flop aggression factor. If his AF is .5 and he's raising here, I am willing to bet you $500 that he's NOT raising with a hand that you beat. He may not have the flush, although unlikely, but he can beat a pair of jacks.

The way I deal with these situations now is that unless I have actually witnessed villain making this kind of bluff, I'm giving him credit for a hand. I'm not even going to waste any time trying to put him on a hand, I just give him credit for something better than top pair. I was involved in a hand with 77 against a pre-flop raiser where I ended up getting my whole stack in on the flop of 455. I had over 200 hands in PT with this guy and a very good read on him, and I knew he not only raised PF with crap, but he will bluff very aggressively. He checked to me on the flop, I bet pot, and C/R'd me all-in. I still felt uncomfortable calling, and knew that even if I was ahead, he problably has two overs and a chance to beat me, but regardless of the outcome, I had a reliable read on this donk, and I made a rational decision based on that very good read. Turned out my hand was good, but again, against an unknown I would never make this call.

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...but I don't think he's push the flush. Wouldn't he want value out of it?

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No offense, but it seems like he got pretty good value out of it just the way he played it. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] But seriously, you've been showing strength the whole hand, he probably figures you're pretty committed at this point. And if he has anything less than the nut flush, the last thing he wants to do is let you beat him with a lone A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] if the river is another club.

I'd also echo what a few others have already said about the play at 25NL on Stars. It's very weak-tight and when you're facing a raise all-in with only 1-pair, you're very likely beat. I've given back a ridiculous amount of my winnings at that game by making calls thinking that they've got to be bluffing. They almost never are. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]