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#12
07-11-2005, 05:02 PM
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Re: confused by hyper loose tables
[ QUOTE ]
most likely you didn't play many hands. live games can run about 30 hands per hour. how many hands do we usually look at to perform rudimentary analyses? about 10000. it's very easy to run very well or very poorly in the short term in these games. but over the long haul, proper play will lead to large winnings at loose passive tables. whether KK holds up one or twice or three times in one session is not relevant. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I was probably wrong to bring up a particular bad beat, and again, that's not what I was posting about. And yes the sample size very is small. And it seems I didn't phrase my question very well, but it seems you answered it well. The question more accurately stated, is "Are tables with 50-80% VP$IP beatable on a regular basis, or are they a more risky form of gambling (lower EV)? It sounds like a stupid question me, higher VP$VP should equal more +EV. I can also see, though, that more players drawing more frequently will hit more big hands. That is what makes the question valid to me, and makes me wonder what (if anything) I'm missing. Your answer, as I understand it, is that I'm not missing anything except long term data (and seemingly cards), and that's what I was hoping to hear. Thank you. 
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#13
07-11-2005, 05:14 PM
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Re: confused by hyper loose tables
[ QUOTE ]
I can also see, though, that more players drawing more frequently will hit more big hands. That is what makes the question valid to me, and makes me wonder what (if anything) I'm missing. Your answer, as I understand it, is that I'm not missing anything except long term data (and seemingly cards), and that's what I was hoping to hear. Thank you. [/ QUOTE ] I barely scratched the surface of a complete answer, so I will elaborate. All poker games require adjustments to your playing style in order to profit optimally from the game conditions. Loose passive games are the most profitable poker games, provided that they are recognized as such and exploited. You are correct that plyaing opponents with absurdly high VPIP is +EV for you. You are also correct that since there are more people drawing "to beat you" that many times your hands (which were strong preflop) will not be the best hand by the river. However, this situation is balanced by the fact that having a bunch of loose passives bloating the pot for you will create disproportionally LARGE pots that you will win when in fact your hands do hold up. Additionally, you benefit from the fact that even when your opponents do make a better hand than you, they will not charge you the maximum, saving you more bets. Thinking about the reasons why certain holdem hands have value and in what situations they have more or less value is a good step towards a more thorough understanding of the game and how it should be played in various conditions. For example, how do we play KK vs. 99 and why? How do we play KJo or ATo and why or why not?
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#14
07-11-2005, 05:23 PM
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Re: confused by hyper loose tables
Short-handed play is a completely different monster than ring play. You have to be both looser, and more aggressive. Don't get too loose, though. There's a starting hand guide over in the HUSH forum that will assist you while you get your feet wet.
There are quite a few articles on SH play, besides the content provided here on these forums, but it's still an area that isn't quite as covered as full ring play. Here are a few things that I've learned in my 9,000 hands at 6-max: -A players' leaks are going to lose them money faster in 6-max. Also, a leak in 6-max might not be a leak in a full game. -Weaker hands win showdowns. -You will have to catch bluffs more often. -You will have to learn proper bluffing strategy. -Never, ever, open limp pre-flop. -Suited connectors go down in value, and "top pair" hands like A9 or KJ go up in value.
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#15
07-11-2005, 05:29 PM
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Re: confused by hyper loose tables
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] ? [/ QUOTE ] The thing you're missing is an understanding of poker. [/ QUOTE ] I must be missing that as well - I don't play anywhere near 80% of my hands. Ever.
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#17
07-11-2005, 09:02 PM
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Re: confused by hyper loose tables
Get HEPFAP and read the short handed section about 3 times.
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#19
07-12-2005, 10:27 AM
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Re: confused by hyper loose tables
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OK.....I'll accept that, but I was really seeking help, not insults. [/ QUOTE ] Read Small Stakes Holdem. Play at these tables for a while. Read it again. Repeat until you start to love those 50-80% VPIP tables.
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#20
07-12-2005, 10:57 AM
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Re: confused by hyper loose tables
[ QUOTE ]
Folding post flop without a hand or a big draw, [/ QUOTE ] In very loose tables, you will often be getting the right odds to chase with all sorts of weak draws. For instance, bottom pair no kicker w/ a backdoor flush draw is often worth peeling with when a bunch of people are seeing the flop and tossing bets in the pot. If you always fold when you fail to nail the flop, this is a huge leak in these sorts of games.
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