Through the eyes of Villain - misplayed on every street?

[bozlax]

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2. Hero has KK, with the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. (Edit: Nope)

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I figured Hero for AK with one of them being a club. I'm appalled.

[MN_Mime]

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Addendum: it's early, and I can't read. YOU 3-BET THE TURN? Jeebus, dude, what did you put Villan on?

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Honestly, I put him on overs and picking up the flush-draw on the turn (any two-broadway with a flush redraw; maybe down to A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9o). I felt I was ahead and if behind bigger pair, there's a 50/50 chance he doesn't have the club redraw plus my 2 tens are live outs against him. If behind a set, my club redraw is nearly 100% live (barring the 9c).

I was more afraid of the calling station already making the flush and 3-bet to put pressure on him to define his hand if villain capped. Being a blind with his numbers, I couldn't rule out an oddball middle pair/two pair or straight draw (78?).

I was trying to get headsup against villain and if successful, I think 3-betting the river might be correct.

[MN_Mime]

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You overplayed on the turn. Why would you even consider 3-betting the river?

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You may be right - see my comments to Bozlax and tell me if that changes your mind any?

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With your hand, I raise PF, bet the flop, bet the turn, and then call down after getting raised. I do not bet this river into two opponents, but I do call a single river bet.

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On the river... what hands are you putting my opponents on that called 2 bets PF, called down with a single raise mixed in, that beat me on the river?

[bozlax]

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Honestly, I put him on overs and picking up the flush-draw on the turn (any two-broadway with a flush redraw; maybe down to A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9o). I felt I was ahead and if behind bigger pair, there's a 50/50 chance he doesn't have the club redraw plus my 2 tens are live outs against him. If behind a set, my club redraw is nearly 100% live (barring the 9c).

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I can understand thinking you're ahead UNTIL HE RAISED YOU. Removing a set/overpair from his hand range is overplaying your hand (even if your club draw is 100% live, you don't have the equity with just that to 3-bet, with or without the 3rd player still in).

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I was more afraid of the calling station already making the flush and 3-bet to put pressure on him to define his hand if villain capped. Being a blind with his numbers, I couldn't rule out an oddball middle pair/two pair or straight draw (78?).

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As you should have been. And how did that strategy work out for you? Raising (partly) for information on the flop is one thing. Doing it on the turn when there's only one card to come and you want info from a calling station is something completely different...spewing.

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I was trying to get headsup against villain and if successful, I think 3-betting the river might be correct.

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A good idea (getting HU) follwed by a bad idea (3-betting the 4th flush on a four-flush board against an aggro opponent and a calling station still to act behind you).

[WSOP Bound]

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Honestly, I put him on overs and picking up the flush-draw on the turn (any two-broadway with a flush redraw; maybe down to A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9o). I felt I was ahead and if behind bigger pair, there's a 50/50 chance he doesn't have the club redraw plus my 2 tens are live outs against him. If behind a set, my club redraw is nearly 100% live (barring the 9c).

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An overpair could also have a club. There is a chance that you are behind VILLIAN on both the turn and the river. You just can't ignore that fact. You also can't ignore SB. You could very well be behind an overpair/2-pair/set against Villian on the turn, and behind a bigger club by SB on the river. And unless SB is a noteably aggressive player he's probably not going to make it clear to you that he has something like the J:club/Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] after watching you and VILLIAN go after eachother on the turn.

Yuck yuck yuck, horrible horrible, no raise preflop, I mean he called your raise, but I would have at least three bet those mugs(j's). Now after the flop the only thing to even worry about is a backdoor flush draw. I guess you could also have a straight draw, which wouldn't surprise me even though there was a raise preflop. Then the villian bets the turn, now by betting he is saying that he has the flush, which if someone else has hit it, he has just given them the chance for a raise, of which he would probably would call anyway. Now I don't blame him for not raising the river since there are 2 other potential callers sticking around, and there is 4 to the flush up, although I don't know if that call was the best either.

Roberto

[Mroberts3]

Grunch...
only street that was correct was the turn. He should have 3 bet PF and raise flop, but if he were a thinking player I might forgive calling the flop and raising the turn to throw you off. (If he knows you are agressive he could get more money out of you by raising the turn instead of the flop. esp if u have AK,AQ,TT,99 ect)

Interesting post, I like the villian POV.

[MN_Mime]

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I can understand thinking you're ahead UNTIL HE RAISED YOU. Removing a set/overpair from his hand range is overplaying your hand (even if your club draw is 100% live, you don't have the equity with just that to 3-bet, with or without the 3rd player still in).

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Is prior knowledge of his holding an influence here? I'm not eliminating those holdings but they are largely inconsistent with the action.

I hold a big pair that's been raised preflop and villain calls 2 bets. Generally, a bigger pair will try to isolate here. Smaller PPs may call to try to flop their set. Big Aces will often come along (remember this guy's numbers). New Information: table is very loose. 50%-60% to the flop and averages about 10-12BB pots.

On a semi-coordinated flop to which I have an overpair, I bet and practically everyone comes along. Again, villain does not raise to protect his hand so it's hard to put him on a made hand. 2-bets on the flop might provide correct odds for some draws to follow so this can be forgiven, but really no indication of a powerhouse. On the other, hand he's obviously got a piece of the flop and feels he's drawing. If he's slowplaying a set or a bigger pair against a huge field, he's playing a very dangerous game. He also has no real idea if he's ahead or behind me but this is as favorable a flop as he can hope for.

On the turn, the flush draw completes as well as a garbage straight draw. I have an overpair to the board and a redraw to the 6th best hand if I'm behind. I bet and then he wakes up but doesn't cap my 3-bet. I think there are a number of marginal hands that will raise me and I have trouble seeing that a 3-bet is a difficult play to make here. This smells really strange and more like a semi-bluff against a scare card than a big hand. What hand does he put me on? Did he make the flush and he's trying to trap the calling station for 1 more bet or did he make a vulnerable hand and he's afraid he's beat?

Between the turn and the river, I wasn't sure if I wanted the 4-flush to come or not and *this* is where I think you're right. I've no idea if I'm ahead or behind. Consequently, neither does he. My first instinct was to check to the *obviously* bigger flush and perhaps that was correct. I don't know. Can I check through the 5th-nut hand?

The J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the river eliminated a lot of hands I was afraid of. Suited broadway just got a lot more narrow knowing where the JT are and most of the other combinations find a raise earlier. Offsuit broadway has no business still being around. Larger pairs should have protected their hand on the flop. In my mind that left A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9o, a larger PP which half the time is missing the club, or a set that I just outdrew.

I'm not saying you're wrong. If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have posted. I had my reasons for this line and I'm looking for something more than anecdotal arguments to find the correct line.

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I was trying to get headsup against villain and if successful, I think 3-betting the river might be correct.

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A good idea (getting HU) follwed by a bad idea (3-betting the 4th flush on a four-flush board against an aggro opponent and a calling station still to act behind you).

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I think you misunderstood. In the case of getting him headsup on the river, I was advocating the 3-bet; thus the calling station is gone.

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2. Hero has KK, with the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. (Edit: Nope)

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I figured Hero for AK with one of them being a club. I'm appalled.

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Why does everyone think that hero could only have a monster hand AA,KK,AK. He is a 20/12.5 (not to say I believe in numbers), both of my numbers are lower than that, and I am raising a whole bunch of hands from ep AT,AJ,KJ,KQ,at least 99,JQ(I really don't like this hand). It smells pretty ppry though

edit: just saw he 3betted the turn, changes things a little, that is one ballsy move without something more than an overpair with 6 people seeing the turn.
But this hand was played pretty weired by everyone at teh table. What is vilian thinking??? Put him on your buddylist

[MN_Mime]

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Interesting post, I like the villian POV.

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Thanks!

When I do my session analysis, I like to take each hand that's shown down and replay it from villain's perspective. I then make notes on the player based upon what I see and I can get some real specific detail.

Sometimes I even see a useful play that helps my game [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]