Why is Andy Fox a mench?

[Zeno]

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Of course Felson's alternative is to realize that even in the unlikely event that a precisely defined god created the universe, and even in the more unlikely event that he intercedes in it nowadays, and even in the still yet more unlikely event that he pays great attention to human beings on one of the quadrillions of planets, it is ridiculous to believe that he greatly rewards the 10% of the worlds's population that believes a specific story no matter how "un nice" they are while horrifyingly punishing the most wonderful people who are either sceptical or are pious about somewhat different religions but still believe in him.

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Kudos. Well said Mr. Sklansky.


-Zeno

[andyfox]

How do we get saved? Can we be saved even if we're atheistic?

[Matt Ruff]

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"Why tormented? According to the typical Christian belief system, it's ultimately Andy's responsibility to do what needs to be done in order to be saved. Felson can offer advice and encouragement, but it's not his fault if Andy doesn't take it.

If a friend of mine had a gambling problem that was destroying his life, I'd do what I could to save him; but if it turned out he couldn't be saved, I'd feel sadness, not torment."

Bad analogy. Because it is clear cut that that he should change.

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If Felson believes that hell exists and that Andy is going there unless he changes, how is that any less clear cut?


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"OK, how about this: I don't think Andy is going to go to hell when he dies, I think he's just going to cease to exist. It's kind of a bummer, but there's nothing I can do about it"

Bad analogy. Because ceasing to exist is not nearly as bad as going to hell.

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Going slightly off-point for a moment -- that's really a judgment call. I like being alive enough that I might choose hell over oblivion, especially if it's a version of hell without constant physical torture.


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Plus you admit there is nothing you can do about it. Felson thinks there is, but can't figure out how to persuade Andy. Thus he should be more upset with Andy's fate than you.

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He says he hopes that as many people as possible will be saved, so clearly the thought of Andy going to hell upsets him. But since Andy's salvation is ultimately Andy's responsibility, I don't see why he'd need to be tormented by it. Felson will do what he can to try to save Andy, which -- as in the case of the compulsive gambler -- may not be much, or enough.


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Of course Felson's alternative is to realize that...it is ridiculous to believe...

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Yes, and in the case of the compulsive gambler, I can always choose to believe that there's no such thing as compulsive gambling.

But Felson has already rejected that alternative. So the question is not whether he should believe in the Christian God -- he does -- but whether, believing in the Christian God, he should be "tormented" by the thought of Andy going to hell. I think torment is too strong an emotion, unless he somehow believes that he is personally responsible for Andy's damnation.

-- M. Ruff

[rigoletto]

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How do we get saved? Can we be saved even if we're atheistic?

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No, it's like Bush' war on terror: "Either you are with us or you are against us".

This is my dilemma when it comes to religion: I want to be a respectfull person who are accepting of others, but how can I respect people who believe that I should be punished in the most extreme sense of the word????

[johnd192]

1st Question: Accept Jesus.
2nd Question: No.

Athiesm by definition does not believe in ANY god much less the christian God. It is a paradoxical for someone to think they can be saved in the Christian sense and still be an athiest. If they accepted Jesus to be saved they would no longer be an athiest. If they remained an athiest they could never acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God.

[felson]

Hi Andy, this page describes how to be reconciled to God.

As for whether atheists can be saved, there is some disagreement even within the evangelical Protestant Christian community. A very small minority believes that Christ's death was efficacious for everyone, so that all will be saved regardless of whether they accept Christ before death. Some believe that people who have never had a chance to accept the Gospel (those who have never heard, those who die as children, those not mentally competent to understand the Gospel) will be saved. But most Christians believe that if one has a chance to accept Christ, but never does so, then hell will be his eternal destiny.

I should emphasize here that the "crime" here is not of unbelief. Rather, it is that of moral imperfection, of which we are all guilty. Christ's death is provided as a means to escape the judgment which is otherwise deserved. (I am not attempting in this post to defend Christian doctrine, only to explain it.)

I am only speaking in generalities here and would not presume to tell any particular individual that he will go to hell. There is very much that I don't understand, and I don't claim to speak for God in that regard. However, I do believe that accepting Christ is the surest route to knowing God in this life and in the life to come.

[andyfox]

So those who do not accept Jesus are doomed to hell, no matter how saintly (and I'm not talking about me here) their lives in other respects?

[David Sklansky]

"I should emphasize here that the "crime" here is not of unbelief. Rather, it is that of moral imperfection, of which we are all guilty. Christ's death is provided as a means to escape the judgment which is otherwise deserved."

Why is hell the deserved punishment for the moral imperfections? Seems like a lesser punishment would sometimes be in order. And if it is the deserved punishment why should a belief in Christ get you off?

[andyfox]

With all due respect, reading the page you linked reminds me of why I am an atheist.

-How do we know that God loves us?

-How do we know that he created us in his own image? The ancestors of homo sapiens looked very different from how we look now.

-How do we disobey God? If he gave us a free will, why should disobeying be a problem?

-Jesus rose from the grave? What's the evidence for that?

-What evidence is there that Jesus is our Lord? Because he and his disciples said he was?

-Why am I a sinner? Because Billy Graham says I am? Because Jesus said he was dying for my sins?

"Help spread the Gospel: Donate on-line now."

I see no evidence that God created man. I see plenty of evidence that man created God.

[felson]

Andy, that's fair enough. I won't try to answer your objections here.

But I think you do misunderstand one thing. Being created "in God's image" refers to having the same abilities of cognition, self-awareness, moral judgment, etc., and has nothing to do with physical appearance.