15-30 Hand: Turn and River Play

Jeffage · #1 09-13-2005, 08:35 PM

Let me know what you think of the turn play. What would you do on the river?

Thanks,
Jeff

I have 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the SB. One limper, I raise, BB calls and limper calls (limped in EP).

Flop comes J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet, BB calls, limper calls. Turn comes the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I bet(?), BB raises and limper calls cold. I have low outs now so I call. Anyone 3-bet? River comes the Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Ugly card. I check, BB bets, limper folds. Easy fold or call in case he raised with a big draw or whatever on 4th?

Thanks,
Jeff

KidPokerX · #2 09-13-2005, 09:54 PM

probably a pretty easy laydown imo

Buzz · #3 09-13-2005, 10:15 PM

Jeff - You're out of position!!!

I think you overplayed your aces after the flop.

Then you don't have a bet on the turn. (You're out of position). But you do have a call. I think your play on the turn is to check/call.

And then you have a fold on the river.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Jeffage · #4 09-13-2005, 10:27 PM

Now this is where I'm having trouble with my Omaha game. Why do I check the turn? I have Aces which may or may not be good for the high and I have a nut low as backup. Is betting and getting raised that bad? Also, many free cards could beat me if I'm ahead for the high.

I'm not saying you're wrong...I'm sure I'm using bad logic here since I'm new to this game. So just curious why I would check the turn here into just a couple opponents so I don't cost myself next time (and when I end up in an 80-160 half and half AGAIN this weekend - seems this might be a permanent change).

Jeff

bodie · #5 09-13-2005, 11:46 PM

Hi Jeffage,

You essentially miss all you would hope for on the flop: only one low and two other cards which could bring a heart flush or a straight possiblity (neither of which you have). Since you raised preflop the opponents most likely read you for A,2, and/or pocket Aces. So betting the flop probably wouldn't fool them, I would check/call the flop.

The turn does give you another low: but BB raises. What could he have? Pocket sixes? Two pair? Slow-playing a set of Queens? At any rate - calling the raise here is calling for half the pot essentially.
Another Queen on the river - BB bets. I fold here - the pot isn't big enough to warrant chasing after the hope that he is only bluffing.

chaos · #6 09-13-2005, 11:57 PM

The big blind called your preflop raise, called your flop bet and raised on the turn. I would think he has a made high hand and wants to charge the low draws the maximum. Since you raised preflop, he likely took into consideration the chance that you hold pocket Aces. Yet he raised you anyway on the expensive street. This bet is not likely to be a bluff since he will get called by the low draws.

The Queen on the river did not help your hand so you are probably still behind, maybe now way behind. I think this is a clear fold.

Nick709 · #7 09-14-2005, 05:15 AM

Hi jeffage, that is an easy river call, especially after the limper folds, if the limper had called the river I would have had a much easier time laying the hand down. As it is, I would play exactly the same and check and call the river as long as it is heads up, there is a lot of hands he can have that don't include a Q, he could be hoping to take the pot down right there hoping no one has a Q(considering all the draws missed). This is a move I would make sometimes if I suspect no one else has a Q or AA, which will call a considerable amount of time, and a considerable amount of times it will be good, that is why I think it is a good call with AA, I call here sometimes with just AJ. Anyway as I am really trying to say is that I think you will see a bluff way often enough to make a call profitable.

Edit: BTW no I don't three bet the turn here unless sometimes when heads up

Jeffage · #8 09-14-2005, 11:45 AM

So who's right about the turn? Buzz or Nick? I'm just curious because this seems to be an area where I run into trouble. Also, I don't think the flop play is debateable but some seem to...comments?

Jeff

pipes · #9 09-14-2005, 11:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Now this is where I'm having trouble with my Omaha game. Why do I check the turn? I have Aces which may or may not be good for the high and I have a nut low as backup. Is betting and getting raised that bad? Also, many free cards could beat me if I'm ahead for the high.

I'm not saying you're wrong...I'm sure I'm using bad logic here since I'm new to this game. So just curious why I would check the turn here into just a couple opponents so I don't cost myself next time (and when I end up in an 80-160 half and half AGAIN this weekend - seems this might be a permanent change).

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

JMO, but I think the advice given to you in this thread is very weak tight. I think the flop and turn bets are automatic.

On the Turn your hand may still be best for high and if not you still have many outs like another A or a 5. You also have an uncounterfeitable low draw. I would not see any reason to 3 bet the Turn though.

On the river, you are getting great odds to call. But I also think you are beaten at least 90% of the time. So calling/ Not calling the river is probably close to a neutral EV decision. But you can beat 2 pair w/o a queen or a busted draw bluff.

Was this game, the 2 way game at the Taj?

Jeffage · #10 09-14-2005, 12:14 PM

Very interesting advice...I lean on the aggressive side at Hold Em (my normal game where I play mid and high limits). So "backing it up a bit" at Omaha8 is a tough adjustment for me. My gut tells me to keep leading this hand and payoff the river, but I want to make sure my hold em tendencies aren't costing me money in this instance. So more input is always appreciated.

This particular hand was on Party. I'm practicing on Party lately b/c I sometimes play in an 80-160 Hold Em game at Borgata which lately has gone to half-and-half b/c a couple huge donators want it. Now, this game doesn't play like the tightish online games. It is loose and aggressive. And, since I really have no say on whether this goes to mixed, I'd like to be able to compete, not miss bets and not get outplayed. So any and all advice would be very much appreciated...I know this Omaha8 game is hugely beatable, but I also know my split game has holes.

Jeff