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#41
11-13-2005, 04:54 PM
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Re: AKs.
[ QUOTE ]
then why aren't you raising the flop? [/ QUOTE ] Uh, because I have no idea what he has yet? I'm completely lost on the flop, but just folding is too weak. So I call and evaluate the turn. If he leads into me for a healthy amount, which I don't see anything doing that I am beating, I fold. If he checks and tells me I am weak, I am reassured I have the best hand. Now I can bet and feel safe about it. [ QUOTE ] I think the difference in actions between the flop and the turn is no good. [/ QUOTE ] On the flop I am confused as hell. I don't know what to think. I don't want to invest a lot of money into this pot right now, a lead like this is usually a big hand IMO. I'd rather slow down, call, and evaluate turn. On the turn, he checks, I am sure he is weak and I have the best hand. Giving a free card is awful if I am sure he is behind. [ QUOTE ] Then one of the WORST cards hits, and now all of the sudden he wants to "protect" his hand. [/ QUOTE ] The check has a lot to do with this. I don't think this is one of the worst cards, either. Again, I do not put Villain on a random Queen, lol. That's absurd to me. [ QUOTE ] Are we way ahead of QJ? [/ QUOTE ] Lol. QJ is NOT likely here, though, mate. Perhaps on Party, but not on Stars, at least from what I can see. We need TWP, xorbie, soah, fsuplayer and all of the other players much better than I to come in and regulate. 
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#43
11-13-2005, 04:57 PM
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Re: AKs.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I lose less when behind when I just raise the flop. If the guys comes over the top for all his chips I fold. If he calls, I'm checking the turn and then probably folding to any reasonable river value bet. I don't want to get into the spot that you're in where I'm calling half-pot, half-pot, half-pot all the way down. [/ QUOTE ] I don't like this. I feel you win alot less by folding out his worse hands. By checking the turn you are inducing a river bet from worse hands, but assume only a better hand stayed from your flop reraise and fold to a river bet. [/ QUOTE ] So basically if everyone checks we should be checking the flop behind? Right? I mean we are only inducing worse hands to fold. That's bad right? [/ QUOTE ] No. Lets not be stupid here. A 1/3 I probably PSR, is it right to do? Maybe. Think about it. A 1/3 bet is either a weak holding or lock hand (QJ, K10, KJ or KQ in most cases). Thus it's a WA/WB situation, as opposed to being checked to where we are ahead most times and either want a call when we bet or a fold, as its unlikely to have a free card make an opponent a second best hand. We are probably ahead most times, but a reraise folds out worse hands, whereas calling and checking the turn induces a raise or call on the river when you are best. Please use applicable explanations rather than invalid exagerations, it's for the benefit of everyone. [/ QUOTE ] Are we way ahead of QJ? [/ QUOTE ] On the flop, absolutelym which is why I advocate calling. Whoops he hit. Checking turn keeps the pot small amd we haven't yet made a fundamental theorem mistake. Knowing he has QJ on the flop, are you raising? Given that the turn is a Q I would check this, and this being one of the few situations, consider Checking or folding to a river bet >1/2 pot.
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#44
11-13-2005, 05:01 PM
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Re: AKs.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I lose less when behind when I just raise the flop. If the guys comes over the top for all his chips I fold. If he calls, I'm checking the turn and then probably folding to any reasonable river value bet. I don't want to get into the spot that you're in where I'm calling half-pot, half-pot, half-pot all the way down. [/ QUOTE ] I don't like this. I feel you win alot less by folding out his worse hands. By checking the turn you are inducing a river bet from worse hands, but assume only a better hand stayed from your flop reraise and fold to a river bet. [/ QUOTE ] So basically if everyone checks we should be checking the flop behind? Right? I mean we are only inducing worse hands to fold. That's bad right? [/ QUOTE ] No. Lets not be stupid here. A 1/3 I probably PSR, is it right to do? Maybe. Think about it. A 1/3 bet is either a weak holding or lock hand (QJ, K10, KJ or KQ in most cases). Thus it's a WA/WB situation, as opposed to being checked to where we are ahead most times and either want a call when we bet or a fold, as its unlikely to have a free card make an opponent a second best hand. We are probably ahead most times, but a reraise folds out worse hands, whereas calling and checking the turn induces a raise or call on the river when you are best. Please use applicable explanations rather than invalid exagerations, it's for the benefit of everyone. [/ QUOTE ] Are we way ahead of QJ? [/ QUOTE ] On the flop, absolutelym which is why I advocate calling. Whoops he hit. Checking turn keeps the pot small amd we haven't yet made a fundamental theorem mistake. Knowing he has QJ on the flop, are you raising? Given that the turn is a Q I would check this, and this being one of the few situations, consider Checking or folding to a river bet >1/2 pot. [/ QUOTE ] Yes I'm raising. If I could see that he had QJ I would raise. For the same reason that if he had QJ and checked to me, I would bet more than $12.
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#45
11-13-2005, 05:02 PM
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Re: AKs.
[ QUOTE ]
I think there is a problem when a one quarter pot lead, into the pre flop raiser who has shown tons of strength, in a 3 way pot that is very likely to have helped Hero, by a 6xBB preflop cold-caller, from the SB, when you have top pair top kicker is utterly confounding to you. [/ QUOTE ] Look at this board, sir. This is not Limit, TPTK is not the nuts. Once more, it just comes down to what you put Villain on. I usually think of this as a big hand. Since it's such a small bet and I have a pretty good hand, I'll call and evaluate the turn. The drawing hands aren't very live so I can risk just calling here in the unlikely scenario of a gutshot betting. Most of my call hinges on the fact I expect to figure out whether I'm ahead or behind by the turn for as cheap as possible. I see raising blowing off hands that are already far behind and keeping in the monsters that will most likely leave me stacked.
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#47
11-13-2005, 05:09 PM
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Re: AKs.
I'm not insisting I played the hand well. I'm insisting I do not like raising here for reasons suggested. It could be very wrong.
Instead of being a turd, please give me reasons why raising is good and calling sucks? Thanks.
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#48
11-13-2005, 05:13 PM
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Re: AKs.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not insisting I played the hand well. I'm insisting I do not like raising here for reasons suggested. It could be very wrong. Instead of being a turd, please give me reasons why raising is good and calling sucks? Thanks. [/ QUOTE ] Davis covered them pretty well.
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#49
11-13-2005, 05:21 PM
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Re: AKs.
[ QUOTE ]
Also this pot isn't even heads up. You are letting people in behind you getting like 7 to 1 with cheese hands like T9. [/ QUOTE ] T9o is not a likely hand. There is only one other person in the pot and he's most likely set mining with his limp-call. I expect a fold from him. [ QUOTE ] I rarely find myself getting donk bet for half pot on the turn in this scenario, but if I did, I would just fold. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, and neither will I. I will call and evaluate turn. Let me ask you something: What is wrong with calling if I am fairly certain that Villain will slow down if he is beat, will only lead again if I am beat, and would fold all worse hands to a raise and only call with better hands. This whole raise screams of reverse implied odds. I guess I am just a weak-tight wuss. I'm sleepy now. Thanks for excellent discussions, guys. Thanks for your help, Davis. Later.
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#50
11-13-2005, 05:59 PM
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Re: AKs.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes I'm raising. If I could see that he had QJ I would raise. For the same reason that if he had QJ and checked to me, I would bet more than $12. [/ QUOTE ] I honestly don't understand this. You expect a call from QJ or are you just content to win the pot as is?
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