I'm a card mechanic.

[The_Tracker]

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Cry me a river.

If I were able to sit in a home game with total strangers that were there to take my money, I would not have any moral qualms about cheating.

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Scratch that. I hope you DO get your ass kicked... or worse.

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Since you are taking the moral high ground here a couple questions.
What would you do, if you were walking down the street and found a wallet with $5,000 in it, complete with the owners drivers license address and phone number?
Or rather, you are playing poker and are involved in a huge heads up pot (by your standards) and notice right as you're raking it that your opponent missed the fact that he had a winning flush hand?
Or how about, you move into a new house or apartment and realize that the cable company has failed to disconnect the cable?
In any of this situations, do you cheat someone, or take the moral high ground?
Don't lie.

[jtr]

Hmm. Good questions.

The wallet I give back, the poker hand I probably keep quiet about as the rules of the game say it's not my job to check what the other guy has, and the cable connection I take advantage of for as long as it's plausible to argue that I didn't realize what was going on. (I hate cable companies. If cable companies were morally good entities, I'd own up to the missed connection.)

YMMV.

I understand that if you deal all day, you'd be bound to wonder what can be done with a deck. I remember seeing Michael Close, a magician in the piano bar at the Monte Carlo, and after that show I was terrified of what could be done with a deck. Enough that I'm always going to be nervous about playing really high limits, I think.

And yes, you're right, people are often bastards and try to get an edge over each other. Look at insider trading on the stock market. Look, also, at Martha Stewart and hopefully soon, Ken Lay: society doesn't like the cheating when it gets too egregious, and we put you away.

Surely there's a happy middle ground between being a hopelessly naive hick who allows others to fleece him, and becoming the sort of predatory amoral jerk you seem in danger of becoming? Surely we can be cautious about the less-than-perfect intentions of others but still agree to play by the rules?

[Arsene Lupin III]

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What would you do, if you were walking down the street and found a wallet with $5,000 in it, complete with the owners drivers license address and phone number?


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Return it. If he offers me award, accept so long as it isn't absurdly large.

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Or rather, you are playing poker and are involved in a huge heads up pot (by your standards) and notice right as you're raking it that your opponent missed the fact that he had a winning flush hand?


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Give him the pot. If he insists on rewarding me for my honesty, I'd probably accept no more than 5% of the pot.

I've awarded a bunch of pots [in casinos and home games] to the correct hand after dealer mistakes or misreads.

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Or how about, you move into a new house or apartment and realize that the cable company has failed to disconnect the cable?


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This one's tricky, because technically the contract could be prepaid. Also, corporations are evil things that act more in line with your cynical expectations of the world. Stealing from them is an entirely different matter than stealing from individuals. Additionally, with their profit-at-all costs nature, cable companies rarely if ever let this happen nowadays, so I would assume the cable had been stolen and, primarily with the motive of avoiding legal and criminal repercussions, let them know. I might watch a little free porn first, tho.

Let's not get the argument out of hand with this marginally relevant example.

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In any of this situations, do you cheat someone, or take the moral high ground?
Don't lie.


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You can't justify something morally just because you can get away with something or you expect others to do that same thing were they able to avoid the consequences. The very fact that you'd be willing to walk into a home game and cheat other individuals without remorse makes you a discredit to humanity by the merit of your willingness to dishonest on a face-to-face, person-to-person level simply for the sake of profit. It's sad to see that you have as little faith in the rest of society's collective morality as you have in your own.

-adam

[mosch]

lupin is correct, and it is not close. Do you see why?

I'll let others elaborate.

[toots]

This is hilarious.

Suppose we have a heavyweight boxer who decides that to maximize his win rate, he'll only fight featherweights. When anyone calls him on it, he says "Hey, it's a fair fight," no matter how badly he pummels his undersized opponents.

Then one day, he catches his opponent using brass knuckles. He jumps out of the ring, screams "That's not fair!" and raises a holy stink.

People who aren't involved in this sport might have difficulty seeing where the clear line between cheating and not cheating is.

[RRRRICK]

About 8 years ago I caught a hanger in a home game who was dealing off the bottom of the deck. Yes I agree that in a home game no one is really looking out for a mechanic but when they get greedy(which you probably will)is when they leave themselves open to getting caught. After about 1-2 hours of play It became evident that this player was winning EVERY hand he dealt. So over the next 5/6 orbits I would politely fold my hole cards on his deal and try to catch a glimpse of something to support my suspicion. It didn't take long for me to develop the opinion that some cards where coming from the base but if you are going to accuse someone of cheating you better be 100% sure which I wasn't. So I focused my attention to the hands themselves and this is where he made his mistake. This guy always dealt himself excellent hole cards and ALWAYS drew a monster on the river. See it wasn't enough to win the hand this guy wanted the maximum from the pot betting out on miracle draws and hitting them, multiplayers with juicy pots. So I decided to pull him up on his next deal. He dealt the hole cards out and the community cards in the middle face down. I took a big gulp stood up and yelled "Stop everything get away from the cards, this guys dealing from the bottom of the deck and has been doing it all night". So the commotion began, needless to say he got very defensive. As calmly as possible I asked him to step away from the table and explained my theory to the rest of the players. Obviously we needed to see some proof and I openly stated that if I was wrong I would apologise and leave the game immediately. I turned over his holes JJ. Then the board 5676J, fair to say there was some anger flying around the room and that Mr Cheat left without his $1000+ winnings. For me personally I was relieved, I went out on on limb and had I been wrong I would have looked like a right royal a$$. Ever since that experience every time I sit down at a table I'm paranoid that someone is running something similar, subsequently I've stopped playing in home games with people I don't know. When youre paranoid and looking out for a cheat your game suffers and you start playing like a tool. So my advice to you is very simple...........Don't do it.

[random]

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If I were able to sit in a home game with total strangers that were there to take my money, I would not have any moral qualms about cheating.

[/ QUOTE ] What the hell is wrong with you? How is this any different than mugging someone?

[RunDownHouse]

Besides the morality of "to steal or not to steal," there's a self-satisfaction issue as well. The best, most serious poker players I know enjoy the money that comes with the game, but they probably derive more enjoyment from the fact that they can beat the game. I'd love to make oodles of money playing poker, but I also love the competition and being able to play well, and cheating would completely kill that part of the game.

How much fun would that be?

[The_Tracker]

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If I were able to sit in a home game with total strangers that were there to take my money, I would not have any moral qualms about cheating.

[/ QUOTE ] What the hell is wrong with you? How is this any different than mugging someone?

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Mugging someone? You are kidding right?
Poker is a sport. Poker is about money. I don't know about most of you, but I play poker to win money. It is also a fun game and I enjoy the competition. But first and foremost I am trying to win money.
Look at what is happening in other sports. Baseball, football, track and field for example. Everyone is on juice. Barry Bonds used steroids to gain an edge. And its about money, make no mistake. The more you excel at your sport, the more money you are going to make.
Besides, card manipulation is not something you do every single hand. It could be used to gain an advantage at the right moment however. Even if only to drag one large pot.
If you are not aware enough to know when someone might be cheating you at cards, then you don't deserve to keep your money. I fear that those of you that are so against this idea, are the very ones that would be completley in the dark if being cheated.

[TabascoJRC]

It would be interesting to see what your employer thinks about this thread.