First psychology post -

Luv2DriveTT · #1 11-27-2004, 11:59 AM

I play semi-regularly in the 4/8 game at PS in NYC. It’s mostly filled with sad sacks who come to play with a smile on their face, but sorrow in their hearts. They come to play to loose or to laugh... all have different reasons, but in general they are mostly horrible players at this level. The common thing I hear from each of them is "I should be playing the 10/20 game; I never get sucked out in that game!". There are two personalities in particular that I wish to discuss:

1) B is a dealer at PS, and is known to be the table donator by everyone at PS (and those NY'ers who frequent the B&M forum at 2+2). Bobby's motto is to raise any two cards... and I'm not kidding. He sees 80% of all flops, and raises over 50% of them regardless of position (but he likes UTG, Button, and the blinds the best). As I am often the only tight-aggressive player at the table (regularly 7 to the flop) B often winks at me when he thinks that I have caught him playing bad pre-flop hands again. B regularly announces his hands to put people off their cards if possible, and he is beginning to get annoyed that I do not share any information about my holdings to the table. I think he believes his wild & looses style is offset by his ability to "read" players... which I highly doubt is accurate. Last night I was UTG with KQs, therefore I open raised. Everyone called 2 cold around to B who 3-bet. My read on B was that he 3-bet out of spite that I raised his small blind. (Remember... any two cards he will raise). All fold back to me, and I cap. The remaining players all call. The flop was AQx. B bets, I raise, all fold back to B who folds. As I am about to muck my cards when B announces "it’s about time you show me your pocket queens". Since he had previously expressed frustration that I was not acting like the rest of the table by discussing my holdings I chose to announce that I would show him one card... the Queen. I did this to keep the spirit of the table the same, and to assure B will continue to provide me with useful information. Was this a wise decision to make?

2) F is a retired actor. He won't shut up, he is always talking and loves to touch my arm (in a very creepy weird way I might add). He seems to be a very lonely guy, I think he plays poker to make friends. Last night alone he asked me 3 times to hang out with him, and has commented numerous times about how good looking I am (he might be gay, but that doesn't bother me). Freddy is always flashing me his cards because he thinks I am his "buddy", and loves to discuss the poor play of the others at the table with me. I of course only nod and make him feel comfortable, I actually do not engage in any active conversation about the table with F, but he is so engrossed with the conversation that he never knows. F and I finally went heads up for the first time that I recall since he introduced himself, and it was a big pot that he folded on the river. He leaned over to me after I mucked my cards and said "be a pal will ya, what did you have". F's smile turned into a frown after I jokingly said I don't give any information away for free. F summarily picked up and left 15 mins later, a broken man. What could I have said to make him happy, without letting him know he was just outplayed? F was a significant looser who likes to announce (with the wrong odds of course) that he is praying for a gutshot, how could I have kept the gutshot king happy?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

timmer · #2 11-27-2004, 12:10 PM

I have a rule I use in such situations.

Dont kick people when they are down,...

IT JUST WEARS OUT YOUR LEG. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Simply put, be gracious and kind but let them know you came to play and win not to "F" around.

They will respect you and probably still like you but they wont Jack with you.

Remember, others are watching too!

Play well and prosper

timmer

Luv2DriveTT · #3 11-27-2004, 12:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I
Simply put, be gracious and kind but let them know you came to play and win not to "F" around.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I attempted to do with F, however it backfired. I later explained to him that I never discuss my cards because what would happen if someday I get caught with a missed 23o at the showdown, so I made a decision to never discuss these things. He smiled briefly, but I could tell I am no longer his "friend".

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Peter Harris · #4 11-27-2004, 07:09 PM

in hand 1) i'd do the same in a live game; show one card ONCE to keep the table dynamic going. That would be it though! I don't make a habit of exposing cards, but poker is all about adjusting to the game - here, the information you gave up showing one card [middle pair minimum] was worth it to keep the table loose and happy.

in hand 2) you wrote the guy's full name in line 3. oops. But i'd tell him what i think he wanted to hear, to keep him "friendly". You want his money and you want him to play soft, right? why jeopardize it. Same as above but a single person option. Of course, if the guy was uber-creepy, then you probably saw this as an out to ditch him!

Regards,
Pete Harris

Luv2DriveTT · #5 11-28-2004, 11:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
in hand 1) i'd do the same in a live game; show one card ONCE to keep the table dynamic going. That would be it though! I don't make a habit of exposing cards, but poker is all about adjusting to the game - here, the information you gave up showing one card [middle pair minimum] was worth it to keep the table loose and happy.

in hand 2) you wrote the guy's full name in line 3. oops. But i'd tell him what i think he wanted to hear, to keep him "friendly". You want his money and you want him to play soft, right? why jeopardize it. Same as above but a single person option. Of course, if the guy was uber-creepy, then you probably saw this as an out to ditch him!

Regards,
Pete Harris

[/ QUOTE ]

Poor Freddy... now I've outed him to 2+2 by accident. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Oh well, its not like the 2+2'ers here don't know how creepy (but nice) he already is, so its not a horrific incident.

I have never been a big fan of flashing cards, but in this one unique instance I gave it a shot, and luckilly it payed off. As for "F", or any other time I enetr that type of situation in the future, I'll "embellish" the truth a bit to make the player happy. Yes he is creepy, but I liked his bankroll's ability to jump into mine.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

bdk3clash · #6 11-28-2004, 10:43 PM

OK, long response for this one. I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving weekend.

I used to play a lot of the PS 4/8--way more than I do now. I know the people you mentioned before you named them. B**** is a nice enough person, but is completely f*cking insane. He couldn't fold his laundry. I don't care how good he is at hand reading, he fails poker lesson #1: "Fold a lot." He is destined to be a loser no matter how good his postflop play and handreading are, the former of which is not very good and the latter of which is more of a trick than anything else. Plus, he'll never stop playing way too many hands.

He's there to take your money as best as he can, just like I am if I'm playing with you. Meta-game wise, there is absolutely nothing you can do to discourage Bobby from giving you action. Show him your hands, don't show him your hands, he'll still raise to push you off nonexistant overcards or call you down when he shouldn't, and bluff at you when he has no hope of taking the pot down.

He will, however, occasionally make a very bad laydown in a big pot with a decent hand. Don't show him your hands--let him keep guessing. I've semibluffed and bluffed the turn against him a bunch of times lately because he has refused to reevaluate his opinion of me that I am a total f*cking rock and only bet/raise near-nut hands. This was true in the past but no longer, yet I continue to pound away at him. God forbit he should figure out that I've been bluffing--he's going to have to pay me off one of those times. You should be doing the same.

As for F*****, he's about as harmless a person as I've ever come across. Some speculate that he tends to be drunk when he's there, but I'm unsure, though I wouldn't doubt it. I never picked up on him being gay, but it's possible. He's a straight up donator and a calling station. He thinks poker is mostly luck, and for him it is. I'd keep friendly with him but, again, wouldn't voluntarily give up information to him. He'll still call with gutshots (and let you know when he's doing so!) in tiny pots, even if you're not buddy-buddy with him anymore. Just stay friendly.

Freddy is also a good indicator of whether you are autobetting the flop after raising preflop or not. When he checkraised me, I realized I had become a bit predictable...

FWIW, not divulging your hand yet keeping things friendly at the table is an important yet underappreciated art. Don't insult your opponents' intelligence ("I forgot," "deuces," etc.) unless you make it clear you're joking. When it doubt, "Jacks" usually makes sense to your opponents, if not to you.

Luv2DriveTT · #7 11-30-2004, 01:42 AM

Thanks for your input Brad. I feel bad for poor Freddie and Bobby, it was never my intention to call them out by name. I guess I didn't do a good final editing job of my post. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, not divulging your hand yet keeping things friendly at the table is an important yet underappreciated art. Don't insult your opponents' intelligence ("I forgot," "deuces," etc.) unless you make it clear you're joking. When it doubt, "Jacks" usually makes sense to your opponents, if not to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you hit the nail right on the head... I found it hard to lie well to either of them, while keeping them happy. I can lie about my hand and be agressive, but I find it hard to keep a smile on my face at the same time. Its obvious that I insulted Freddy's intelegence and scared him away. Next time I must try harder to not be so agressive.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

turnipmonster · #8 11-30-2004, 05:35 PM

"I should be playing the 10/20 game; I never get sucked out in that game!"

that's a classic. last time I raised UTG in the 10 game I got 7 callers.

EliteNinja · #9 11-30-2004, 10:14 PM

1) Good decision to keep it friendly and loose.

2) You should ask him, "What do you think I had?" And then agree with whatever he says. Keeping everyone happy is important.

Luv2DriveTT · #10 12-01-2004, 01:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You should ask him, "What do you think I had?" And then agree with whatever he says. Keeping everyone happy is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the first thing I tried.... it didn't work with F.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]