Garbage hands with great implied odds?

[greg nice]

i wonder if some of you people even review your hand before you post. you just post first and ask questions later. waste of everyones time. then when people criticize your play, you dont even try to see where you are wrong, and waste more time with your backwards attempt at a justification for your play.

at party 25nl, people call raises with anything. what the hell do you expect aggression to accomplish when you have everyone calling?

your preflop raise means nothing when everyone calls. do you expect all 6 players to have logical holdings? if they will call preflop with anything, they surely will call when they pair up. you got LUCKY that the guy with JTo was a reasonable player. most party fools who call a preflop raise would have called with that. likewise with the flush, what do you think people are calling the flop with?

and regarding the bad beat, would it have been a bad beat if the flop was Kxx? then again, this party guy couldve pushed, and i have no doubt you would call and then come post your bad beat on the forum. this is where implied odds comes in. at your table i would play K2o if i knew you would call my subsequent all in with TT.

your mistakes in this hand were much worse than this guys preflop mistake.

[tree_stump]

Two points...

1. The post had nothing to do about a bad beat. It was about the theory behind playing crap hands if you have high implied odds... For instance, does A3s become a "better" hand if you're 6 to the flop?

2. Ever think that people are asking for help, and not just for some as*hole to say "shi*ty play"? Against a Kxx board, or a KQx board, hell no I'm not going to push. But with a PFR, I expect people to have aces, kings, queens or small pairs much more frequently than a crappy jack... And last I checked, a pair beats ace high, right?

Instead of being an ass because I'm trying to explain my rationale, be constructive and explain WHY my rationale is flawed. And give me solid theory, not just, "well NL25 is fishy, you should know better."

[Yeti]

People are getting touchy because your posts don't seem to show any common sense, and you're unwilling to listen to any advice.

I understand your rationale fully.

Now let me ask you, if someone is going to call your pot bet on that flop, what do you think they have? The turn comes a diamond - you are BEHIND.

There's no point having a hand in the top x% if you can't play it properly when the flop is less than ideal. Hell, based on your play in this hand, I'd take k8s in position v you head up, let alone in a multi way pot.

To answer your question, of course suited ace-rags go up in value as you get more people in preflop.

You seem somewhat disappointed that people aren't calling your preflop raise of TT with AA, KK, QQ, JJ. Would you be more pleased if they did?

People at this level will call preflop with weaker hands than you. But sometimes they will make better hands on the flop too! You have to use good post flop play and rationale, rather than thinking 'But my hand was good preflop...he can't have called with THAT, surely?!

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
But with a PFR, I expect people to have aces, kings, queens or small pairs much more frequently than a crappy jack... And last I checked, a pair beats ace high, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think that with six to the flop in a Party 25 game it's unlikely for someone to have a jack? You get called by K8s, and you don't think it's likely that someone is out there with KJ or QJ? Especially after you have two callers of your decent sized flop bet. This hand has to be given up when you're called on the flop in two places. Especially when the draw hits.

Justin A

[greg nice]

[ QUOTE ]

Instead of being an ass because I'm trying to explain my rationale, be constructive and explain WHY my rationale is flawed. And give me solid theory, not just, "well NL25 is fishy, you should know better."

[/ QUOTE ]

i did explain it. your inability to understand it is the reason why you lose hands this badly. take time and read what people are telling you.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
1. The post had nothing to do about a bad beat. It was about the theory behind playing crap hands if you have high implied odds...

[/ QUOTE ]

Implied odds by definition involve your opponent putting more money into the pot when he no longer has the best hand. Attempting to separate your own play from your opponent's implied odds is impossible because they are DIRECTLY RELATED.

You even go as far as to say that you bet the turn in hopes of making a better hand (a pair of jacks) fold. You are handing out implied odds on a silver platter.

[creedofhubris]

Yes, A3s is much more playable when there are five limpers.

Look, your main profit from a game with bad loose players in it is to get them to pay you off when you hit your hands, not by bluffing them. If they're bad enough to call raises preflop out of position with weak jacks, their flaws lie in being calling stations, not in being easy to push off hands.

So, don't bluff them!

[Ghazban]

The worst thing I see about your play is that, after the worst possible card came on the turn, you pushed. After getting called in two places on the J-high, 2-diamond flop, you gotta figure at least one of them has either a jack, two diamonds, or better (set, two pair, overpair, whatever). Even with just one caller, I'd shut down with two tens with an overcard and a flush out there. Against someone who always assumes I have a hand when I call a raise, I'll absolutely call with crap because, when it hits, it'll be well-disguised and they'll happily pay me off.

Preflop hand selection is highly table-dependent. As an extreme example, if nobody plays anything but AA, I'll raise any two cards and get the blinds the vast majority of the time. Then if I get called, I know to shut down without a monster flop. If people will call my raises with any two, I'm certainly not going to keep pushing an underpair when I get multiple callers on the flop. Wait until you have the flush yourself to make that bet and you'll almost certainly get paid off.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

The thing about implied odds, especially in a low stack game, is to get in cheap. Calling a raise w/ Kx is not usually a good idea for a few reasons.