KJo in LAGgy hand

[Aaron W.]

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I've been folding preflop when it's two back to me. But, given your read its probably close. I play the rest of the hand the same way.

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This is one of those ways that my game has changed tremendously over time. I used to fold when I thought a situation was close. Now I play. It raises variance a whole lot... but it's so much more fun [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

[Aaron W.]

Anyway, SB turns over TT with a diamond and takes the pot. Looking up the results later, I find that donk had Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], and the button had K9o.

Lets say Hero bets on the turn. Button raises (his 2pr).

As SB, do you call with TT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] not closing the action, getting ~6:1.

[Buckmulligan]

I think the turn checkraise is good, but I would have bet the flop and considered ditching from there.

I'm not that worried about the diamonds on the turn, actually. IMO, if someone has a broadway diamond he's sticking around no matter what (and may very well be correct for two bets) and someone without a broadway diamond is folding.

[Aaron W.]

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Lets say Hero bets on the turn. Button raises (his 2pr).

As SB, do you call with TT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] not closing the action, getting ~6:1.

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It's close. Given my laggy image and the other guy's laggy image, a turned flush isn't on the top of the list of hands I expect to see. The gutshot is worth 3 outs (leaving out the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]), and the flush is worth maybe another 3-4 outs. Sometimes I'll see a better flush on the river when it's a 4-flush, but not always.

I would probably fold, but I would expect many players (not necessarily 2+2ers, but just players in general) to call.

I say donk the turn hoping for a raise from BB to thin the field on this draw-heavy board. This probably still won't chase out Ad or Qd, but if anyone folds here it helps. Check-raising the field on the turn gives infinite odds to everyone and doesn't protect your hand in an already large pot. Also, if you bet the turn and get raised in multiple spots you may get away losing 1bb as opposed to at least 2 under your line if you're behind.

[Aaron W.]

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I say donk the turn hoping for a raise from BB to thin the field on this draw-heavy board. This probably still won't chase out Ad or Qd, but if anyone folds here it helps. Check-raising the field on the turn gives infinite odds to everyone and doesn't protect your hand in an already large pot. Also, if you bet the turn and get raised in multiple spots you may get away losing 1bb as opposed to at least 2 under your line if you're behind.

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Suppose villain raises. Am I actually glad that he raises my turn donk on an increasingly scary board?

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Suppose villain raises. Am I actually glad that he raises my turn donk on an increasingly scary board?

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Yes, the plan is for villain to raise. If villain is aggressive he will raise with a lot of hands that we are ahead of including AK, AA, and maybe TT-QQ. I'm never 3-betting the turn and I'm folding to 2 more bets back to me. I also check the river most of the time here even on a non-diamond. I think the donk gives us the best chance to win if we are ahead and get out if behind. I could be totally wrong, but it makes sense to me.

[smoovee]

alright im having a tough time trying to figure out what the best play is? but what was your strategy for the flop and turn? did u play the flop as a weak draw by check/calling? sb checked so it probably meant weakness after capping preflop and by button being agressive he could easily likely raise the flop with any pair if u led out. so that would be 19:2 for sb and bb. obviously a f/d is correct to call and probably even a gut w/implied odds. also, it looks doubtful that it will get 3-bet on the flop and wont further decrease any weak draws. regardless, i dont see a way to protect on the flop. so do we wait for the turn and maybe hope flop bettor raises if we donk even if we dont improve? or do we play it as a draw still? for the turn, isnt the best chance to maximize our chances to win is by leading and hoping for a raise from the agr. player. we can't assume the worse especially not from the agressive guy and if it gets called well they can have a lone diamond or a small flush. 3-bet or cap from one of them well judgment call and maybe draw to a boat if the pot dictates so. well im not satisfied by my analysis, comments please? probably skipped over some small things, but hopefully the comments will fill them in as i am done for now.

[Aaron W.]

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Suppose villain raises. Am I actually glad that he raises my turn donk on an increasingly scary board?

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Yes, the plan is for villain to raise. If villain is aggressive he will raise with a lot of hands that we are ahead of including AK, AA, and maybe TT-QQ. I'm never 3-betting the turn and I'm folding to 2 more bets back to me. I also check the river most of the time here even on a non-diamond. I think the donk gives us the best chance to win if we are ahead and get out if behind. I could be totally wrong, but it makes sense to me.

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Aggressive is not the same as stupid. Raising a turn donk with the hands you listed (with the exception of possibly JJ) is overaggressive poker. Look at it from the other side. My hand is played out like I have a monster that's afraid of him checking behind if I donk the turn. The flush/straight card just fell and it was capped preflop. There are plenty of hands for villain to fear at this moment, and I'm not sure he can raise me unless he has two pair or better, and even getting raised by two pair is iffy because of the strength of the board.