something I've been doing lately.

[Jinx]

5/10 4 handed game, so the blidn structure is 3/5, so it's less for the SB to see a flop. a 25/20 ish tag with a 33% ATSB raises on the button. You're looking at TJo in the small blind. The BB is kinda loose. I just call.

Or maybe the BB is another one of the many lagtags who play where i play. I just call anyways.

Who likes, who thinks I should 3 bet, and who thinks I should fold? As a note I call about 1/3 of the time, raise about 1/3 of the time, and fold 1/3 of the time, depending on my mood.

[Spicymoose]

Fold. Hand is way too weak. You are dominated a lot. You are out of position. It is still too expensive.

[Jinx]

Folding TJo always in a 4 handed game from the SB just because the button raised seems like a big mistake to me.

[Wynton]

I fold also.

[Peter Harris]

if you raise and fold the kinda loose BB some of the time:

[ QUOTE ]

597,594,096 games 2.103 secs 284,162,670 games/sec
equity (%) [tie (%)]

Hand 1 [Hero]: 38.6615 % [ 2.00 ] { JcTd }
Hand 2 [Button steal range]: 61.3385 % [ 2.00 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }


[/ QUOTE ]

If you just call and let BB in getting 5-1:
[ QUOTE ]
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

539,627,468,688 games 2878.078 secs 187,495,776 games/sec

equity (%) [tie (%)]

Hand 1 (Hero): 31.4029 % [ 1.00 ] { JcTd }
Hand 2 (Button): 41.9841 % [ 1.00 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 3 (BB): 26.6130 % [ 1.00 ] { random }

[/ QUOTE ]

so why not deprive BB of an equity edge and increase your own? I just dont see why we'd rather have JTo 3 ways for 2 bets than JTo HU for 3 bets, even if we're OOP. Coupling that with the fact that we make it +EV and therefore correct for the loose BB to call with any two and i think it's a raise or fold situation.

But, as i said earlier, i don't play 5/10.

EDIT: i never said what i usually do, i think this post just serves to show calling is not goot. I would fold JTo against your implied player, raise it against laggier others...

[Aaron W.]

I would be more inclined to 3-bet than call. 25/20 TAG is raising a bunch of hands preflop which are ahead of you (Ax, Kx), but won't be happy to see you 3-bet. You're also not as likely to be dominated because he's raising so many hands. This play also puts a lot more pressure on him to fold postflop if he misses (which will happen most of the time).

Also, 3-betting will make "kinda loose" BB fold pretty often, and you'd rather be heads up instead of 3-handed.

Do you know anything about 25/20's postflop play?

[Spicymoose]

This guy isnt even a blatant stealer. 33% ASB isnt all that much, and even if he was a more liberal blind stealer, JTo is not very good at all. It has very little showdown value, and you are out of position. If this guys ASB was around 50, I might consider playing it, but otherwise, I just fold it and move on.

[beachbum]

I agree folding against him is your best bet. You have to remember someone with these types of stats is most likely a good postflop player so you put yourself in a really tough spot.

In my ass-backwards thinking, I'm more inclined to call with JTs. Is that wrong?

Also, how many hands does it take for ASB to converge to a fairly accurate number?

[MicroBob]

of course I doubt those stats are for 4-handed...they are probably mostly for 6-handed on most sites where you have played against him.


(yet again...I implore p-tracker to allow us to see these stats more easily...I want to have those heads-up hands against an opponent filtered out of the stats when I am now facing him 6-handed)


33% isn't a huge ATSB.
JTo has crappy showdown value.


This is a bad reversed implied-odds situation. If you miss your pair it's likely you're behind.
If you hit your pair then you are more likely to be dominated than to have him dominated.

JTo is just not a good heads-up hand and I fold to a raise.


Your general argument about cold-calling in the SB to a steal is one that I have played with before with certain hands. Entity (I think) told me that it's still going to be better to try to 3-bet the BB out of the hand OR have him stay in with a likely worse holding.
I have come to the conclusion that others probably know a bit more of what they'r talking about in this area and have stopped doing the cold-call thing.


I've also dropped about a zillion BB's the past few weeks...your results may vary.

[Jinx]

Yeah, the original question was much more of a general "is it ever right to coldcall from the SB" question. For hands like QT and JT with top pair potential but no real showdown value unless it pairs up, I don't think it's a horrible idea to cold call and see what BB does. Why pay an extra SB to drive the BB out? He's either gonna fold something like 59 regardless.Also,a lot of BB's, especially when it becomes 3 and 4 handed, won't fold hands that dominate something like JT or QT, even if it's for 2 cold. Or at least the lagtags I play don't.

As for the actual hand itself, yeah, his 4 handed stats aren't 25/20. That's just his 6 max approximations. For 4 handed most lagtags become something like 35/30. And I think folding the SB with JTo against a 35/30 button raiser is a mistake. When it becomes 4 max the range for steal hands of an aggressive player becomes huge.

I 3 bet with something like K7o, but for something with no SD value unless it improves, I don't see much point in 3 betting, especially since with how much back and forth raising there is during blind situations, people start peeling real liberally, and betting the flop and turn to make it fold it becomes expensive.