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  #21  
Old 12-09-2005, 01:50 PM
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Default Re: empire 55r JJ facing raise

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Pooosh

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Thats pretty bad.



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Why? He'll get called by a king, and maybe AA or QQ, and everyone else will fold. Oh, wait...

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Yeah, you're right. Hero should call. But I really like pushing [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].
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  #22  
Old 12-09-2005, 01:51 PM
Sam T. Sam T. is offline
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Location: St Louis, MO
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Default Re: empire 55r JJ facing raise

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This is a semi WA/WB situation. I'm calling down, unless another player gets involved, then I'd consider running away like a little girl.

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It's kind of WA/WB, but the difference is that there is no guarantee that if you are way ahead you will stay ahead. The problem with the flat call is that it gives everyone else in the hand lovely odds if they are drawing - someone else WILL get involved. And becasue the flop checked around we can't discount the chance that a couple of spades are out there. This means over half the deck could be bad news - how do you play a spade, diamond, A or Q? Hope that it checks around again?

That said, I don't have any good ideas, so *slips into skirt* for a quarter of my stack, I think I'm letting this one go.
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  #23  
Old 12-09-2005, 01:51 PM
schwza schwza is offline
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Default Re: empire 55r JJ facing raise

i called.

and so did the rest of the table.

MP3 (t23462)
SB (t10515) 7015 left
MP1 (t17125) 12625
Hero (t11130) 7630

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t1100</font>, Hero calls t1100, MP3 calls t1100, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t900, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t4800) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (t4800) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t2400</font>, Hero calls t2400, MP3 calls t2400, SB calls t2400.

River: (t14400) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, hero?
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  #24  
Old 12-09-2005, 01:51 PM
Rizen Rizen is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Default Re: empire 55r

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Pop to 3500 call a push.

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This is a pretty bad line, and I hope you understand why. Raising 33% of your chips with JJ is, generally speaking, a bad play. I like the flat call others suggested (and that Hero took).

I'm with Sam T. somewhat in that I'm almost more scared on this flop that there was no cont bet or bet period on that flop. I'm almost more scared by the lack of action on this flop than I would be by a bet. Depending on the opponents I might consider firing a half pot bet, but more likely here I'm checking to see how things develop.

On the turn I hate that it's MP1 that bets into you. I really don't think you can flat call here because you're giving up way too many chips when someone else raises behind you, and you have two players left to act. Perhaps this is weak/tight, but I probably fold this and wait for a better spot, although I wouldn't hate pushing here either.

FWIW I also don't hate a push PF, although I think pushing PF is a high variance play with your stack. Very good hand for discussion though, JJ in a multi-way pot == tough!

-Rizen
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  #25  
Old 12-09-2005, 01:54 PM
gumpzilla gumpzilla is offline
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Default Re: empire 55r JJ facing raise

I probably check-fold. After the free flop, everybody hanging around on the turn looks really suspicious. I think there's an excellent chance the flush got there, I think betting out trying to represent it doesn't fold a K (which I think is also reasonably likely to be out there), and I don't see the action going MP3 bets and it folds to you, which is about the only situation where I might consider calling.
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  #26  
Old 12-09-2005, 01:57 PM
schwza schwza is offline
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Posts: 113
Default Re: empire 55r

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I'm with Sam T. somewhat in that I'm almost more scared on this flop that there was no cont bet or bet period on that flop. I'm almost more scared by the lack of action on this flop than I would be by a bet.

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really? how often do you cbet air in a 4way pot with a coordinated flop? i usually play those honest: bet if i connected, check otherwise. and if i had AK or KK, i bet every time because i don't want to give free gutshots + flush draws everywhere.
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  #27  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:00 PM
Sam T. Sam T. is offline
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Location: St Louis, MO
Posts: 160
Default Re: empire 55r JJ facing raise

[ QUOTE ]
i called.

and so did the rest of the table.

MP3 (t23462)
SB (t10515) 7015 left
MP1 (t17125) 12625
Hero (t11130) 7630

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t1100</font>, Hero calls t1100, MP3 calls t1100, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t900, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t4800) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: (t4800) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t2400</font>, Hero calls t2400, MP3 calls t2400, SB calls t2400.

River: (t14400) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, hero?

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Is this thing on? Check...

IF MP3 bets and it's folded to me, I'll call t2000 or so. If he bets more, or gets even one call, I'm done.
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  #28  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:00 PM
schwza schwza is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 113
Default Re: empire 55r

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I really don't think you can flat call here because you're giving up way too many chips when someone else raises behind you, and you have two players left to act

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there aren't that many made hands that SB is going to check twice. i think he needs to have K9/99/KK/22 to take that line with something strong. similarly i thought MP3 was pretty much giving up on the hand by checking behind on a coordinated flop.
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  #29  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:04 PM
schwza schwza is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 113
Default Re: empire 55r

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FWIW I also don't hate a push PF

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ugh... push 11k to win 1700? it's going to fold out TT and leave me up against only bigger pairs and AK. i may as well have 55 to make that play. i think about 8k is my upper limit for a pushing stack.
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  #30  
Old 12-09-2005, 02:12 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27
Default Re: empire 55r

I'd have either bet the flop or folded the turn.

Betting the flop is risky but doable. Because you have jacks, KJ is unlikely, and AK usually reraises, so only KQ is a likely hand here (actually since it's Empire, they're all unlikely). I don't terribly mind checking, but I bet specifically because I don't want to deal with that kind of turn.

So you check, a king comes, and MP1 bets. He either has QQ or TT, with a slight but significant chance of AK/air. You've a somewhat over 50% chance of being behind to him alone, and there are 2 others in with two flush draws, plus he's betting into 3 of you. Oh, and you can't call a river bet. I just fold this.

The river's an autocheck if you get that far.
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