JT hand on 2/4 Party

Chris Daddy Cool · #1 09-13-2005, 05:33 AM

Here's a hand I saw online.

It's 2/4 limit hold'em on Party. I don't know anything about this table, but I've been told it was an okay table, whatever that may mean.

there is a limper in early position. Hero limps in middle position with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. A good player raises in the CO. A bit-too-loose button coldcalls. The small blind folds. The big blind calls. The limper and hero calls. 4 to the flop for 8.5 small bets.

Flop: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to the CO who bets. Button raises. Blind and original limper folds. 10.5-2 to call, hero hesitates and then calls the two bets cold. CO calls as well. 3 way action for 8.5 big bets.

Turn: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero checks. CO checks. Button bets. Hero checkraises. CO folds. Button calls.

River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets.

How did our hero do?

newhizzle · #2 09-13-2005, 05:45 AM

i think hero should fold on the flop, is the a-bit-to-loose button also a-bit-to-aggressive, cuz otherwise i dont like the turn play either, the way it played out, river is fine, i guess

Nick Royale · #3 09-13-2005, 05:47 AM

I think this flop is a bit marginal. Not counting the times he'll hit and lose or get 3-betted on the flop he'll have to make ~3BB when he hit his straight. Counting the tims he'll hit and lose or get 3-betted he'll probably have to make ~4BB. I'm not sure we can count on that.

shant · #4 09-13-2005, 05:59 AM

I don't know about the flop call, but if we're checkraising the turn because we're putting the button on an aggressively played draw, then I don't like the river bet. I think we should check and call.

baronzeus · #5 09-13-2005, 06:05 AM

the turn is so awesome. you fold out a million better hands by CO. well done.

Nick C · #6 09-13-2005, 06:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the turn is so awesome. you fold out a million better hands by CO. well done.

[/ QUOTE ]

If CO has a better hand on the turn, I think he has a different read on Button than Hero does.

Anyway, what better hand did CO play this way? KQ? AQ? KK? AA?

Edit: I suppose it's possible CO planned to checkraise and Hero beat him to it.

baronzeus · #7 09-13-2005, 06:11 AM

AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ

Nick C · #8 09-13-2005, 06:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
AJ, AQ, KQ, KJ

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's AQ/KQ, then CO played his hand pretty passively, I think.

I personally wouldn't auto-bet AJ/KJ on this flop versus four players, without a flush draw. So it's possible I'm discounting those possibilities more than I should.

jason_t · #9 09-13-2005, 06:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the turn is so awesome. you fold out a million better hands by CO. well done.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. If I recall correctly, you were pretty against Josh's turn raise in the A hand from the archives thread because you thought there was little value in it. It doesn't matter if you were or weren't against it though; here I see little value in the turn check/raise with respect to the reason that you're thinking.

A good CO pushes AA/KK/AQ/KQ harder on the flop, certainly if he has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and especially with the board being so draw heavy and the possibility that the Button is going for a free card.

A good CO doesn't bet the flop with AJ/KJ unless he has a flush draw to boot in which case he isn't going anywhere.

So what I'm saying is I think the CO rarely (read almost never) has any of the hands you think you're getting rid of and if the turn check/raise is correct, it's not for the reason that you think.

Finally you have the advantage of seeing the CO's reaction to the turn check/raise. That doesn't mean that a priori it was a good check/raise.

From reading a lot of your posts carefully over the past few weeks, I get the sense that you just like aggression. You don't think about when and where it should be placed. You just raise preflop and postflop you bet and raise and stop 'n' go go go without thinking about it and its consequences carefully enough. I could be wrong, but those are my observations and I hope you find them helpful.

Nick C · #10 09-13-2005, 06:30 AM

I'm getting 13.5:2 on Hero's flop cold-call (rather than 10.5:2), but it still seems to me that the call is based on what CO and Button could have more than it's based on what they're likely to have.

Hero may have a better read on his opponents than I do, though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. (I think a lot of the time Button is raising the flop because he has a queen, but Hero could know better. Also, though, I do worry about a 3-bet from CO.)

I think I like the turn checkraise. It's a good play if Hero is ahead, and if he's drawing versus Button, Hero might at least clean up some outs if Button has a hand like AK/99 and folds it. Plus, as Baronzeus points out, there is some chance of driving CO off of a better hand, though I'd be kind of surprised at this point if CO in fact had a better hand.

In any event, although the flop play seems optimistic to me, Hero is a player who would give me trouble at the table.