River mucking situation in home game

AJo Go All In · #1 02-06-2004, 04:01 PM

Something unprecedented happened in my home game tonight. What should have been the result of this?

Big pot developing, lot of action preflop and on the flop and turn (this is a .5/1 no limit hold'em game). The board is all rags and on the river an ace hits. Player A bets, Player B thinks, and thinks, and calls. Player A says "Nice call" dejectedly and starts making the motion to muck his cards. He then flips his cards face up and throws them into the muck. He had an ace and a jack (this wasn't a slowroll, he thought he had lost the hand). Player B then starts to rake in the pot. Now A asks what B had, and B shows pocket kings.

What if A's cards had not yet touched the muck, and B, as a courtesy, had shown his hand?

What if A flashed his hand and then threw it in the muck?

Does it matter if A had thrown his hand face down in the muck instead of face up?

Some background, this is a home game that is taken fairly seriously, we all know each other, but nobody is softplaying. We don't follow casino rules to the letter per se, but we do (generally) enforce things like not coming in on the small blind, throwing out one chip means a call, string betting, etc.

AliasMrJones · #2 02-06-2004, 04:07 PM

There are 2 generally accepted rules that I think would govern this...

1. Any cards in the muck are dead.

and

2. The cards speak for themselves.

So...he throws his cards face up in the muck, sorry he loses. He throws his cards face up on the table and says I lost, he wins. He flashes his cards and throws them in the muck, he loses. If his cards in any way tough the muck, he loses. If his cards don't touch the muck and somehow they end up face up on the table, he wins no matter what he says.

MDPokerAA · #3 02-06-2004, 04:09 PM

The player with AJ showed his hand face up, so he wins the pot. You can say that the cards hit the muck all you want, but the fact of the matter is that he turned the cards up, other players were able to verify his hand, and the second player in question turned over the losing hand.

UNLESS the player with pocket Kings turned his hand over well after the first players "muck", for example he held his hand long enough for the board and the other player's hand to be in the muck and ready to be shuffled (in which case player B is basically shooting an angle to make sure he wins the pot), then the player with AJ STILL has a right to the pot.

The reason player B could make a case for the pot in the scenario I mentioned is that player A basically gave up the pot even if he knew he had a winner. Essentially, it's harder to prove that player A had a winner because the cards AND the board are in the muck. And, ultimately, player A shouldn't have let it get to that point if he cared about winning the pot to begin with. If he's that embarrased over his top pair, decent kicker, maybe he shouldn't be taking down the pot.

In my opinion, given your explanation, player A should win the pot. If player B were a serious player, he wouldn't get too bent out of shape over the matter. This is the way most casinos would handle it, although it can vary depending on the floorperson in question. Hope this response was cogent and helpful.

LetsRock · #4 02-06-2004, 05:02 PM

Sory, but I disagree.

The first response was more in line with the "rules of poker". Cards in the muck are dead, face up or other wise. Player A forfieted his right to the pot. He deserves to lose. If he turns his cards face up on the table (not in the muck pile) cards speak and the pot is awarded to best cards shown.

I hope player A learned his lesson and was not awarded the pot. Sometimes that's the only way you learn these "protect your cards" lessons.

Lottery Larry · #5 02-06-2004, 06:02 PM

Player B was stupid to show his hand

MDPokerAA · #6 02-06-2004, 10:23 PM

It's not about disagreeing, it's about rules and commonly enforced practice. I've seen this happen many times playing Hold Em in Atlantic City... if the situation had happened exactly as AJ described, player A would have been awarded the pot provided at least one player or the dealer could verify his hand. Most floormen will ask if anyone saw his hand, and ask the dealer to confirm a player's hand, and then reward the pot to the winning hand. Cards being dead once they hit the muck, no questions asked, is a popular myth which is not always true. In fact, most of the time, it's specious.

In a home game, yes, usually either cards speak or cards die once they hit the muck. But I think AJ go all in is asking the question in the first place because he wants to get a different viewpoint. Either way, I agree that player A made a mistake and doesn't deserve the pot in theory, but in casinos and many home games, he is entitled to the pot because player B (the KK's) made the mistake of showing his hand.

AliasMrJones · #7 02-07-2004, 11:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not about disagreeing, it's about rules

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe I posted the relevant rules above. The cards hit the muck, pot was awarded (Player B was raking in the pot), end of story.

If player A is going to reveal his hand, he should do so without throwing his cards in the muck. I can never understand why players don't just flip their cards over face up and keep their mouths closed at showdown.

Yes, the rules can be bent, and we've heard many stories here of floorpeople making rulings that bend and/or break the official rules. But, that doesn't change the rules.

Both of these players were pretty dumb. I'd award the pot to the host to cover snacks/drinks.

Easy E · #8 02-07-2004, 03:02 PM

" We don't follow casino rules to the letter per se, but we do (generally) enforce things like not coming in on the small blind, throwing out one chip means a call, string betting, etc. "

While you don't have to follow to the letter of the law, you'd better think about makings some letters of your own for your game.

I say the hand is dead- it wasn't a mistake and he didn't change his mind about folding until AFTER he saw the other hand. If he had changed his mind on his own and you could undeniably return the proper cards to him, then I could make a case for getting his cards back.... but in this situation, no- mucked 'em, he's done.

Especially true since this was a tournament, right?

kwyjibo00 · #9 02-08-2004, 12:56 AM

No. Live game.

Hedge Henderson · #10 02-08-2004, 05:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He then flips his cards face up and throws them into the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

If things happened in that order and you play "cards speak", then player A gets the pot without question. He bet, so he has to show first, and he has the winning hand unless player B shows something better.

If player A mucked without showing, player B wins. If player A just "flashed" his cards, good luck with that. I guess it depends on where you decide to draw the line between a flash and a show. Though I can't say any of our players are dumb enough to fold to a call, in our game, if anyone not directly involved in the hand can confirm the hand, player A would still get the pot.