Monster draw OOP 600PL

[shaundeeb]

Converter all messed up so I will just post HH.

***** Hand History for Game 1969925514 *****
$600 PL Hold'em - Friday, April 29, 00:49:29 EDT 2005
Table Table 36804 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: XXXXXX ( $624.69 )
Seat 6: shaundeeb ( $1136.35 )
Seat 3: XXXXXXX( $836.25 )
Seat 1: Villian( $1165.2 )
Seat 5: XXXXXX ( $665.1 )
Seat 4: XXXXXXX ( $478 )
XXXXXXX posts small blind [$3].
shaundeeb posts big blind [$6].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to shaundeeb [ Qh Th ]
Villian raises [$12].
XXXXXXX calls [$12].
XXXXXXX folds.
skunkmasterc could not respond in time.(disconnected)
skunkmasterc folds.
ikeman45 calls [$9].
shaundeeb calls [$6].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, Qs, 9h ]

Great flop for me usually a limit player and I was basically lost at this point.
XXXXXXXX checks.
shaundeeb checks.
Villian bets [$20].
XXXXXXX folds.
XXXXXX folds.
shaundeeb raises [$75].
Villian raises [$180].
Not sure what to make of his reraise but I remember reading a few posts saying to try to get your stack in the middle on the flop with a monster draw OOP as opposed to calling the reraise and future bigger bets still on a draw
shaundeeb raises [$571].
Villian is all-In [$953.2]
Now I am sure he has 10J guess I gave myself correct odds to call now.

shaundeeb is all-In [$478.35]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8d ]
shaundeeb shows [ Qh, Th ] a flush, queen high.
Villian shows [ Jd, Td ] a straight, eight to queen.
Villian wins $28.85 from side pot #1 with a straight, eight to queen.
shaundeeb wins $2294.7 from the main pot with a flush, queen high.

[xorbie]

Pair + flush draw is not really a monster draw. It plays well in small pots, because you're two pair occasionally wins. That said, having your paired card be TP is actually bad, because we are assuming that just a Q is no good, so another Q isn't really goin to help. Against a set or straight here, you have 9 outs and a crappy runner runner.

[soah]

A phrase I like to keep in mind... "the best way to win in NL is to spot your opponent the nuts, and then suck out."

If you are up against a set or better, then having a pair here is worthless... your "outs" to make trips or two pair are no good, barring the miracle runner-runner boat. And if you can get your entire stack in the pot on the flop, then it's a pretty good bet that you will need to make the flush to win... when all the money goes in, you have to suck out enough to beat the current nuts, not just suck out enough to beat a pair.

This is not the type of hand that I like to go crazy with on the flop, because your opponents will fold everything that you are ahead of, but they will not fold very many better hands. If I had bottom pair and a flush draw, then I would be more likely to play it very aggressively, because I would like to get folds from hands like second pair, pocket pairs worse than top pair, etc. Also, if my opponent decides to stick around with TPTK, then having bottom pair gives me more outs than having top pair with a worse kicker.

But of course, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you're pretty sure that your opponent has an overpair and won't back it with his stack, then go ahead and blow him off of it... my advice is geared more toward all of the times when you see a flop without much of an idea of what your opponents might hold, which is much more common.

[spoohunter]

Are you guys ignoring the gutshot?

[soah]

I did miss that (in my defense, I've been awake for 19 hours or so...) But I still stand by most of what I said. In this instance, if you're assuming your opponent has the nuts, then hitting the gutshot will only give you half of the pot (and your opponent also holds one of your outs already) so it is a pretty weak draw. Of course, you could certainly end up all in against a set and your gutshot outs are live... but a set has a redraw to a full house which hurts your equity quite a bit. Without actually checking the math, I think you are actually better off against the made straight than against a set here. But I'm too sleepy to be very confident in anything I write anymore, so I reserve the right retract everything I've written. In fact, I can't even remember for sure what point I was trying to make.

[spoohunter]

A fellow insomniac : ) I think I'm at 24 and running.

Get some sleep and check this again soah. I think Hero played this perfectly.

[soah]

Well, I think what I was trying to say (although I didn't make my point very clear) is that Hero's hand currently has pretty significant showdown value. Normally with a big draw you would be happy for everyone to fold, because your only chances of winning are to take the pot down with a big bet, or to hit your draw. But in this case, there is a third option: You may already have the best hand. That aspect of the hand appears to have been overlooked by Hero.

[Greeksquared]

Pushing people off hands with big draws is nice, but you don't always have to do it. There is no reason to put your stack into the middle on a flop like this, especially with stacks this deep. You can easily just call his flop bet getting 3-1, because if he flat calls your raise and a blank hits, or your hand improves but is still second best then you are in for some trouble.

Getting your entire stack in after being 3-bet is probably not a great idea. At most you are 50-50.

Usually a raise of this half pot bet is going to get you the pot, but this "monster" draw is still a draw. Why risk it?

[hansarnic]

I think I would lead the flop, because:

1) I can win the pot right there
2) If I get raised by original raiser I can call or 3-bet
3) If I get flat called I am building a nice pot, I have the initiative & I don’t mind leading again on most turns
4) My hand is nicely disguised if I make my draw on the turn
5) By taking the initiative I may also be given the chance to price myself in for my draw to the river if I miss the turn