pushing too hard with Bad Larrys?

[tpir90036]

good live 5/10 game with only one decent player who was not involved in this hand. everyone else is way too loose and very passive unless they have a huge hand. this hand is not terribly intersting with the exception that i stuck to a read that i made and rode it out.

3 limpers to me and i raise on the button with Bad Larrys (Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]). if you don't know why QJ is called "bad larrys" don't worry about it.....just know that it is. anyway, the SB folds and the BB calls.

5 to the flop.... J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, i raise and everyone calls.

turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])

BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets (this player clearly gave no thought to what my hand was and liked to fire away with any sort of draw....so either he just hit two pair, he picked up a club draw, or he picked up a straight draw) so i raise again. everyone folds accept for MP2 who just calls.

river 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])
MP2 bets again(??) he was wise to the free card play so maybe he thought i was on a draw and missed....so since it's late and i am half drunk *and* i had him squarely on a hand, i raised prepared to fold to a 3-bet since he will only 3-bet if he filled up.....

i know i played the hand like a retard....but i was up...and i just love bad larrys so much that i couldn't help it....it's kind of like my personal grannie mae. anyone want to fathom a guess as to what happened and what his hand was?

[GuyOnTilt]

I like very much until the river raise. What hand did you have him on, and would he have called you with it?

GoT

[spamuell]

He called with his T6o? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[tpir90036]

very very nice.... but it was obviously suited [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[tpir90036]

i had him squarely on two pair and decided to stick with that read throughout the rest of the hand. i think the river raise is definitely -EV and even the turn raise is questionable since i was probably behind and drawing very thin when i made it.

[tpir90036]

oddly enough my read was correct and he showed T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for a weaker two pair. i don't think the turn or river raises are +EV in the long run but the fact that he kept betting into me after i raised made me laugh so i decided to keep on raising since there was a great chance in *this particular* hand that i was in fact ahead.

[GuyOnTilt]

i don't think the turn or river raises are +EV in the long run

I disagree. I think your turn raise here is definitely a good move, since you said that he's either betting 2 pair on the turn, or picked up a draw. If those are the only possibilities, then I'd definitely raise the turn here. Your hand is vulnerable on this board, the pot is large, and you want to limit the field. This is a situation where you definitely want to raise the turn. Good play. I would check through on the river without improvement, but since the board paired low, I probably would've bet with your read. The river raise is still questionable though.

GoT

[MDPokerAA]

Dude, Bad Larry's is an incredibly hard hand to play well. Obviously you want to play Bad Larry's for it's straight potential, and, whenever possible, suited Bad Larry's for it's flush potential.

Oftentimes, if your opponents take it UPSTAIRS before the flop for two or three bets, then you are most likely dealing with A-X and K-X, meaning they have hit the flop HARD. Oops!

Obviously, I believe hitting Broadway, the NUTS, is best when playing Bad Larry's because you'll be able to take it upstairs on the turn. Your opponent(s), when placed in such an undesireable quagmire, will be forced to pay you off like a donkey when he/ she calls you down in a state of frustration, futility, and mild confusion. Despite the fact they know they are smoked (at this point they probably are resigned to the possibility that they have become the newest victim of Bad Larry's), they will continue to call down, hoping their top pair is still good. Unfortunately for these donkeys, you will table Bad Larry's in their despondent face and scoop the pot.

A monkey with a head wound knows all this, but it's worth reiterating.

HOWEVER... flopping a Queen or a Larry (Jack) can get you into loads of problems because more often than not, you're dominated like Robert Varkoni at this past year's World Series. Again, pretty obvious, but in order to be the BEST, you must first MASTER BAD LARRY's. Let me know if you agree/ disagree.

[tpir90036]

i agree completely about the broadway payoff factor (BPF) with both bad larry's and it's cousin uncle larry (KJ) which is not to be confused with cousin larry from the timeless sitcom "perfect strangers". here is a perfect example from a 5/10 game the other night at the taj:

i am in the BB with bad larry's suited (Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]). there are two limpers and the button raises. i don't like going upstairs to the third floor out of the blinds unless i have AA, KK or bad larry's (QJ), plus he is a loose spongey player who could be raising with as little as J9 (which i have dominated) so i "trizz it". the limpers fold and the button caps! oops. heads-up to the flop.

flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
not the best flop. i have a 3rd degree backdoor flush draw to the third nuts (i would need at least three extra rivers), a backdoor broadway draw and i might be drawing dead. so i bet, the button raises and i call.

turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])
i look at the button player and he cracks a huge sh*t-eating grin. he must think that i have Ace-Larry (jack) and i think that he has top two pair...and he thinks that i think that he has top two pair...so i bet. he looks at me in horror...knowing what is going on and that even if the floor person came over and we both signed waivers to change the rules and he went all-in i would still call and he would still lose his entire stack even though he is a 94%+ favorite to win this hand since i only have 3 outs because he has the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. he makes a futile raise and i call.

river: T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])
well that is good news, if he already had a flush i now only need two extra river cards to make my flush and i have picked up a straight-flush draw as well (assuming i could convince the dealer to deal the ocean [6th card] and the abyss [7th card]...he looks kind of hungry so maybe if i get him a grilled cheese from the poker snack bar he will oblige).

anyway, i bet. the button raises. i 3-bet. the button 4-bets (takes it to the "attic"). i 5-bet (the "roof"). he 6-bets (the "sky") and i 7-bet ("heaven"). the button flips over his K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] asking me why i am not afraid of the flush. i table bad larry's and tell him "because i have THE NUTS!!"

the button goes on tilt so badly that the entire room becomes shifted at a 20 degree angle and a few of the drink girls fall over since it is very hard to walk in heels across a sloped surface. he then throws his hand so far across the room that it ends up 12 tables over in an omaha hi-low game. oddly enough it lands right between a queen and a larry and an 80 year old man flops a straight draw and two pair (larry's up) which becomes both broadway and a full-house giving him a huge helping of NUTS. the tilting goes on like a huge domino effect until donald trump himself comes to the poker room and personally "fires" all of the queens and larrys from of all of the decks.

anyway, i won the hand but i am kind of upset becasue i missed a bunch of bets on the turn and the river.

comments appreciated....
-tpir

p.s. if you were at the taj this weekend and you didn't see any of this happen, it's ok. your psyche has purged the memory, but when you start having bad larry's nightmares, don't hesitate to come to 2+2 for instructions on how to get the medicine you need.
p.p.s. upstairs.
p.p.p.s. nuts.

[pudley4]

Man, that was some funny sh[/b]it

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]