Why the war on drugs will never be won

[BCPVP]

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How about the victims of those who cause auto accidents while under the influence of drugs similar to those caused by driving while drunk?

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Throw the book at them?

I think drunk driving laws should be much harsher (in a law class my senior year of high school, we went to the court house and saw TWO FIFTH TIME drunk drivers).

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Your examples are awful. Rape is not victimless. Recreational drug use is.


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Having seen two friends' lives consumed and ultimately ended by heroin, and their families' lives destroyed in the process, this is the most clueless, ignorant statement I've read on this board to date.

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If people want to do drugs, they will do them regardless of the presence of state intervention. The reason people don’t do drugs is because they are aware of the adverse effects, not for fear of the law.

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This is very clueless and ignorant as well, lacking any understanding of why people abuse substances.

Given legal, cheap drugs like crystal meth and heroin, many people who would otherwise never touch a drug in their life would succumb to the temptation upon losing their job, being divorced, having a loved one die, etc and wanting to drown the pain away. The reason most regular folks avoid this right now is a) fear of the law and b) no access. Legalizing drugs eliminates both of these deterrents.

Many people infact succumb to their depression with alcohol and in rare cases even commit suicide. And infact alcohol can consume one's life and ruin it as well, but that is a different story. Resorting to easy-to-find heroin or meth to eliminate pain would lead to a chance, lets say an incredibly good one, that your life will be entirely consumed by the drug with little chance for recovery.

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The legalization of drugs may increase addiction somewhat, not as much as you think though.


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Again this is entirely ignorant to not only common sense but to empirical evidence as well. Just look at countries like the Netherlands who have legalized pot and seen pot use among even 10 years olds increase 300+%. Well, at least Needle Park is open and thriving.

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Poor example. One is providing a product which people demand, the other is promoting the illegal use of force.

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Murder for hire is a very demanded service in both the US and the world. Who are you to tell someone how to run their business? By illegalizing it, you limit its supply and drive up profits for hitmen, providing them financial incentive.

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Drunk drivers hurt other people, against their will.

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And drug users never hurt other people against their will? Clearly you know very little of drugs and their effects.

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This is actually pretty good. When people demand something, the market will always provide it, whether legally or illegally.


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This is, again, unbelievably ignorant to common sense. Drug use is demanded because of temptation. Yes, temptation will always exist. Simply because there is demand for something doesn't mean we should legally and cheaply supply it. There are black markets for child porn, murder for hire, tax fraud outlets, and yes, drugs. To argue that drugs are a victimless crime is even further ignorant to any real life experience with drugs or drug users.

Step out of the abstracts for a moment and maybe think about the day in the life of a helpless addict.

[hmkpoker]

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Your examples are awful. Rape is not victimless. Recreational drug use is.


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Having seen two friends' lives consumed and ultimately ended by heroin, and their families' lives destroyed in the process, this is the most clueless, ignorant statement I've read on this board to date.

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No. That was their decision. People should think before they do heroin, and if they don't, they don't deserve to live. We shouldn't take away things that are dangerous to the user who makes a conscious choice to use them. We should try to educate and help people make informed decisions, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what America does with drugs. If you need to be protected from yourself, your life isn't worth much anyway.

[hmkpoker]

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Step out of the abstracts for a moment and maybe think about the day in the life of a helpless addict.

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Addicts aren't helpless.

You are totally correct, hmpoker. Anyone that makes a mistake in life deserves to die.

And clearly, because you say so, children aren't affected when their worthless father OD's. And clearly a parent isn't affected at all when a worthless son or daughter ODs. Drug use is 100% totally victimless.

The economy works better with these irrational decision makers 6 feet under where they rightly belong. Who couldn't agree with hmpoker, that anyone who ever tries heroin is a complete moron who doesnt deserve to live.

[hmkpoker]

Look. A good society should offer freedom to its members (if you disagree with that, I'm done talking with you). People should have the freedom to do what they want, provided that it doesn't do obvious harm to others, or infringe on others' freedom.

There are caveats, though. By offering freedom to the masses, you give them the freedom to make bad decisions. And unfortunately, many people have other people who are dependant on them, so messing your life up may, yes I agree, mess up the life of another. This is a very unfortunate thing because to create a social structure that allows one to exercise freedom without endangering others is almost impossible.

However, if the solution is to just take freedom away, I think life becomes worse. Get rid of alcohol, no more abusive alcoholic parents. Get rid of personal transportation, no more auto accidents. Get rid of tobacco products, no more lung cancer. Get rid of violent video games and song lyrics, no more school shootings (as the media would have had us believe six years ago). Get rid of airplanes, no more terrorist hijackings. You see where this is going.

Drug use belongs in this category. It is a certain freedom that can bring about good, if used correctly, or bad, if used improperly. You bring up heroin constantly, and I agree, that's on the worse end of the drug spectrum, but drugs, for the most part, don't [censored] up your life unless you let them. (I have yet to hear of one good argument for why cannabis should be illegal)

And lastly, the war on drugs hasn't DONE anything useful! It puts people in jail when they aren't doing anything damaging to society. (Should a heroin addict be thrown in jail? Is that going to be good for him and his family?) Drugs are still as popular as they ever were, and as they will ever be. They are still readily available, despite Bush's war and propaganda. There is ALWAYS going to be a high demand for it. All the war on drugs has done is A) grossly inflate the price of drugs, B) allow substances to be sold unregulated, making them much more dangerous to the user, C) cause the profits to go to gansters, drug lords and criminals when it could be going to legitimate American businesspersons, and D) disseminate false information about drugs, making the citizens' decisions more uninformed.

I admit that it was a bit rash for me to say that all these people deserve to die. However, if we are to live with freedom, we have to accept the consequences of our actions. I don't want to live in a world where I have to be protected from myself, and neither should you.

P.S. Look at prohibition. Did that accomplish anything useful?

[BCPVP]

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Many people infact succumb to their depression with alcohol and in rare cases even commit suicide. And infact alcohol can consume one's life and ruin it as well, but that is a different story.

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You need to explain this one to us. What makes alcohol worse? Your reasoning for why drugs should be illegal is very similar to the arguments used by those in favor of Prohibition and I think we all know how well that worked out.

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Again this is entirely ignorant to not only common sense but to empirical evidence as well. Just look at countries like the Netherlands who have legalized pot and seen pot use among even 10 years olds increase 300+%. Well, at least Needle Park is open and thriving.

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I have already pointed out that underage drinking is rampant. Is that a good reason to outlaw alcohol? Why not? Shouldn't the parents of these 10 year olds know where their kids are and what they're doing?

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Murder for hire is a very demanded service in both the US and the world. Who are you to tell someone how to run their business? By illegalizing it, you limit its supply and drive up profits for hitmen, providing them financial incentive.

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Drug use is consensual. Murder is not. They are not comparable.

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And drug users never hurt other people against their will? Clearly you know very little of drugs and their effects.

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If drug users should not be exempt from laws against hurting others. Like I said to BluffTHIS!, the laws against drunk driving should also apply to drugs if they're legalized. Drug users may hurt others while using. If so, throw the book at them and get them counseling. Why do you feel you have any right to restrict the freedom of other people?

[The Don]

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If people want to do drugs, they will do them regardless of the presence of state intervention. The reason people don’t do drugs is because they are aware of the adverse effects, not for fear of the law.

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This is very clueless and ignorant as well, lacking any understanding of why people abuse substances.

Given legal, cheap drugs like crystal meth and heroin, many people who would otherwise never touch a drug in their life would succumb to the temptation upon losing their job, being divorced, having a loved one die, etc and wanting to drown the pain away. The reason most regular folks avoid this right now is a) fear of the law and b) no access. Legalizing drugs eliminates both of these deterrents.

Many people infact succumb to their depression with alcohol and in rare cases even commit suicide. And infact alcohol can consume one's life and ruin it as well, but that is a different story. Resorting to easy-to-find heroin or meth to eliminate pain would lead to a chance, lets say an incredibly good one, that your life will be entirely consumed by the drug with little chance for recovery.

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People do things because they want to, not because they are tempted. I heard this propaganda back in 5th grade DARE classes. Some people will do drugs, others won’t... at least everyone will have a choice should they be legalized.

Furthermore, are you saying that the entire concept of demand in economics is based on temptation and not voluntary choice? Humans can make their own decisions. Why are you so against this? If people want to harm themselves, that is their prerogative. Ice cream is bad for you. Should we ban that? Alcohol and tobacco too. Ban those?


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The legalization of drugs may increase addiction somewhat, not as much as you think though.

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Again this is entirely ignorant to not only common sense but to empirical evidence as well. Just look at countries like the Netherlands who have legalized pot and seen pot use among even 10 years olds increase 300+%. Well, at least Needle Park is open and thriving.

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Two issues:
1) Cultural – Pot isn’t viewed as a bad thing there.
2) Because of issue #1, parents will be very lenient in dictating their children’s actions regarding the use of marijuana.


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Poor example. One is providing a product which people demand, the other is promoting the illegal use of force.

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Murder for hire is a very demanded service in both the US and the world. Who are you to tell someone how to run their business? By illegalizing it, you limit its supply and drive up profits for hitmen, providing them financial incentive.

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So involuntary is the same as voluntary. I will take note of that in future debates with you.


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we're not paying as much to keep so many prisoners alive.

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This doesn’t add to your argument, because likewise we could legalize drunk driving and not have to pay so much money to officers and lawyers and judges and jails that punish drunk drivers. That doesn’t mean we should legalize drunk driving.

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Drunk drivers hurt other people, against their will.

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And drug users never hurt other people against their will? Clearly you know very little of drugs and their effects.

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Both of your responses here are out of context. The original comment is referring to the people who are in jail for using and dealing drugs, not harming people because of them. You proceeded to compare that to drunk driving (again the voluntary and involuntary thing you seem to be having trouble with), which I corrected. You then responded again out of context.

As for your most recent response, I am all for punishing those who violate other’s property -- whether it is their life, autonomy, or possessions.



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This is actually pretty good. When people demand something, the market will always provide it, whether legally or illegally.

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This is, again, unbelievably ignorant to common sense. Drug use is demanded because of temptation. Yes, temptation will always exist. Simply because there is demand for something doesn't mean we should legally and cheaply supply it. There are black markets for child porn, murder for hire, tax fraud outlets, and yes, drugs. To argue that drugs are a victimless crime is even further ignorant to any real life experience with drugs or drug users.

Step out of the abstracts for a moment and maybe think about the day in the life of a helpless addict.

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Please get this through your head. Drug use is voluntary. Murder is not. Please refrain from comparing the two.
By your definition of demand, the reason I want to buy a pack of gum is out of temptation. I don’t buy the gum out of temptation; I buy it because I have voluntarily chosen to. Should gum be illegalized by the state, I would still demand the gum and someone would supply the gum in a black market. This changes nothing, except for the fact that it is more of a hassle for me to get gum and I have to spend more money on it. I am still going to chew gum though, no matter what the state has to say about it’s legality.