Did I just collude?? I feel dirty...

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
Frankly, I have no qualms about what we did,

[/ QUOTE ]

dont see this as anything other than collusion.

OP says he intentionally made it 2 bets on someone so the person would fold even though OP knew he had a losing hand.

doesnt matter that he didnt split the money or talk about it outright.

bwana

[bwana devil]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. OP couldn't have known his buddy's hole cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

here's what OP said to that though:

"we were...[ QUOTE ]
working "together" (for ONE of our benefits, although we didn't know whose)"

[/ QUOTE ]

so he didnt know the hole cards but he figured one of them would win the pot w/ the river play. clearly collusion. anyone arguing differently should buy some ethics.

bwana

[brokedickrooster]

If it feels dirty, it is dirty.

[Ulysses]

nevada,

"the only way one of us was going to take down this sizeable pot was for us"

"working "together" (for ONE of our benefits, although we didn't know whose) without communicating"

This is out-and-out cheating. You and your friend were each playing a certain way so one of the two of you could win the pot, not so you individually could win the pot. You played poker as a team sport.

[razor]

perhaps one of the mods can change your title from 'journeyman' to 'cheat'.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. OP couldn't have known his buddy's hole cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

here's what OP said to that though:

"we were...[ QUOTE ]
working "together" (for ONE of our benefits, although we didn't know whose)"

[/ QUOTE ]

so he didnt know the hole cards but he figured one of them would win the pot w/ the river play. clearly collusion. anyone arguing differently should buy some ethics.

bwana

[/ QUOTE ]

So when you bet the flop into a preflop raiser, hoping he'll raise to drive out the draws and weak hands, that's collusion? You are "working together" to maximize the chance that ONE of you will win the pot. Sklansky talks about this in his books, stating that it may be correct to bet/raise even if you know you're beat in order to drive out draws (and potentially better hands) and maximize your chances of winning. This sounds like a sandwich play, nothing more.

Again, NH

ScottieK

[bwana devil]

that's true. however the times you lose those hands you dont consider them as your "benefit." that's what OP referred to it as.

[ QUOTE ]
for ONE of our benefits

[/ QUOTE ]

EDIT: this guy was all too happy to lose his hand. he bet so his buddy could win and he said that in his post. this is not a move from sklansky.

bwana

[teddyFBI]

Yeah, I'm just not getting the animosity toward OP here either...the fact is that if these 2 players didn't know each other, everyone would be raving about the nice play that "Dave" made to win himself the pot. OK, so now let's add to the pot the factor that these players know each other, and on of them THINKS he knows what's going thru the other guy's head (but of course can't be sure, unless they've worked something out beforehand, although there's no indication that this was the case).

So while OP might indeed have had the mens rea of a colluder, the actions themselves are on the level...not quite sure how you can accuse him of being a cheat...

[bernie]

Interesting situation.

What was your purpose of betting the river? You know someone is at least going to call you if not raise. Both would be with a better hand as given how the hand played out, it's obvious you aren't going to win this hand. What would Dave be betting the turn with that you can now beat on the river? Would you have made this bet with the same thinking with a busted baby flush draw? You have a hopeless hand here on the end given the prior action. If this was the reason:

[ QUOTE ]
the only way one of us was going to take down this sizeable pot was for us to bully out MP2 who we both felt nearly certain held an overpair based on his tightness

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a fine line based on your thought process alone.

[ QUOTE ]
he hoped that I would bet the river, so he could bully check-raise to win the pot for one of us. No advance plan was made...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there sort of was. Basically, if you guys get into this type of situation that you presented, that's what you'd do. Which is basically playing for the benefit of both of you. I mean, c'mon, you'd do it over again even if you know your hand will lose, wouldn't you? You've pretty much said so even in this hand. (see your thought process above)

But it is an interesting situation.

Nice squeeze play.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. OP couldn't have known his buddy's hole cards. If he did, then he was cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basic handreading could tell him that his buddy has some sort of made hand. He just bet into a tight preflop raiser twice during the hand.

b