Don't know if you can help but.....

[LetsRock]

I play mostly low level limit. I'm comfortable with the "low risk" of limit and have the patience to handle the grind. I play in a weekly home game, where we play low stakes ($25 buy-in) NL poker. I enjoy the NL game, but havn't developed the "heart" for it yet, but I'm working on it. On to the situation.

I know there's no way that anyone can give me a definitve answer but I'd like to hear some opinions. This hand has been bugging me to death for a couple of weeks now.

The cast:
UTG:Very experienced player who is a bit on the loose side (I'd classify him as "playful") and very aggressive. This game is well below his normal stakes and approaches it with a bit of abandon. He's very sharp and will shove 'em in at any time. He likes to gamble a bit. I'd say he's probably a Brunson student.

CO: Me. I'm a solid player. I play a little too tight and a little too passive. I'm not a rock, but I'm sure not real aggressive most of the time (but I'm working on it). I've played with UTG enough to believe that he has (too good of) a read on me. He knows I'll laydown a decent hand with enough pressure but he also knows that I'll play back if I have a real good hand.

The hand. UTG raises (5x the blind, which has been a pretty consistent raise throughout the night. A couple of others call, I call with A5s. (I like the flush angle and I have position.) There's 4 or 5 to the flop.

Flop: AQ7r

UTG Bets 10x Blind. A pretty standard opening bet - strong but not intimidating. Others fold and I raise to 20x (double his bet) anouncing my Ace. everyone folds to UTG who shoves them in - about 3/4 of a buy in (about 5x the pot). I have him covered with a little to spare, but I'd be pretty crippled if I called and lost.

After thinking about it, I determined that I got the answer I wanted from my raise and let him have it. It wasn't a huge pot, but it has been bugging me ever since.

Facts: If he has a big Ace or a set I'm way behind. If he has KK or smaller pair, I'm a little ahead. That's why I folded.

After a couple weeks of stewing about it, I realized that it could have been a different "game": All-in means A) I want you out of this pot right now or B) I want all of your money now.

Given his ability to read me well (at least I think he has me booked) and his gambler's tendencies I'm begining to think he was scaring me off the pot. I made a very weak raise on the flop (a very typical limit move) and he decided to put some pressure on me.

If he had a real strong hand (AA, AQ, set), I'm thinking he would have waited for the turn to really get me commited to the pot if he wanted a call. Since he knew that I would lay down a decent hand, he played me out of the pot.

I don't know for sure and this exact situation is what makes me uncomfortable about NL, it usually comes down to a couple of big decisions a night and if I guess wrong, it's real expensive. In limit, these kinds of decisions adds up to just a few bets if I'm right or wrong.

Like I said, it's hard for you to help, but I'd sure like to hear your thoughts on my thinking with this hand. (I know the A5s call is a little loose, but I like to defend this type of hand for a small raise when I have position.) My main concern is the flop play.

[Richie Rich]

Transitioning from LL to NL will require several adjustments to your game. First off, A5s should be played like a small pair. If the flop doesn't look kind (i.e. you don't see any flush/straight draws, and an A & 5 didn't fall), then you should be willing to let it go. Your Aces/weak kicker is not likely to be the winning hand. Try to stick with Sklansky's Group 1 - 4 hands, loosening up a little bit on CO or the button. Playing patiently is of key importance.

(In LL you can call all the way to the river in hopes that he only has KK or you magically hit a second pair. But in NL, you cannot do the same...it will cost you too much in the long run.)

Still wondering how to beat this guy? In NL, it's the secret of trapping him. Since he enters a number of pots quite loosely, just wait until you have a very good hand and pop him on the turn/river. Now this won't work out in your favor 100% of the time, but the odds are still in your favor.

Also, since you've got position on him for a couple of hands (three, I believe), be sure to play some mid suited connectors to mix up your play a bit. If he has a good read on you, you have to counter-act that by adding a few more hands to your arsenal (so that he doesn't have a clear read on you every time).

This guy can't win every time. Let the other players be his victim, while you wait for the right time to make him your prey.

[gavrilo]

I don't like the Minraise on the flop, you're pretty much telling him hey I have an Ace, but yet it's not a great one. You said he is aggressive and reads you well. I think you need to either raise more here or fold. Min raising like this against the player you describe is pretty much asking for him to make this move against you.

[rhinoceros]

You don't tell us the stack sizes--maybe you aren't thinking about them. When I look at Axs and it is raised to me, I think "how much might i win if I do make the nuts?" With 2 cold callers in front, you probably have good enough implied odds, but you should always be thinking about how to win an opponent's entire stack. So the bigger the stack, the more outrageous the draw you can play.

When the flop comes, there are 3 routes. First, you can fold because your kicker stinks. Second, you can flat call. You plan to let him bluff into you repeatedly. The downside is that if you are outkicked, you are going to lose a huge pot (and maybe second guess yourself all night for losing a huge pot on a crappy hand). You must balance this against how much he is likely to lose stealing without an ace. Lastly, you can make a normal (pot size) reraise. It's 20-25 BB pre flop, he bet 10BB, you now raise to 50BB. If he reraises, you can comfortably fold. Notice that he will fold some hands that dominate yours.

The choices here depend on stack sizes. Also, do you have a backdoor flush draw? It can help the second plan (calling) enormously. He doesn't always bet the turn. And if the money is deep enough, you will occasionally win an extra bet on the river. That extra bet is VERY significant at no limit.

Your mini-raise is not amongst my listed choices. Because it screams, "please reraise so I can get away from my hand." Which he did. This guy knows you. So next time you flop a set, give him the mini-raise.

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
This guy can't win every time. Let the other players be his victim, while you wait for the right time to make him your prey.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I usually do and he usually doesn't get into my stack too much. He knows if I'm in a hand that I have at least decent cards. This was just on situation that I felt I made the right decision at the time, but it has been gnawing on me since.

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the Minraise on the flop, you're pretty much telling him hey I have an Ace, but yet it's not a great one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly how I felt after thinking about this hand for a couple of days. It was such a "limit" move and realized that I just opened the door for what he did.

I'm thinking that next time I'd either just call (hoping for more hellp on the turn, or shove them in myself hoping to buy him off his hand. I considered if I should have made a bigger raise, but figured that I would have been pot commited had I done this and would likely call his all-in anyway at that point - so put the hard decision on him.

[josie_wales]

[ QUOTE ]
He knows if I'm in a hand that I have at least decent cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This, then, would be your read on him. If after betting into you and getting raised(even a mini-raise) by you he STILL pushes in....

Well, you said his read on you is that you will be in/bet with something good. Thus, I would think he has something better than good and you laydown was good.

However, you also said that he likes to gamble. He could well be pushing you around. Thus, while it may have been a good laydown, I would have called his all in for a couple of reasons:

(1) You may well have the best hand
(2) If not, he will see that not only do you play very good hands, but also marginal ones as well. So, even if you lose, he will think twice about bullying you next time.

Thus, you may lose this hand but it may be +EV in the long run.

What do you think?

jw

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't tell us the stack sizes--maybe you aren't thinking about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I kinda do later in the hand. He had about a full buy-in and I had a little more. But you're right it wasn't clear and it is important.

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, you can make a normal (pot size) reraise. It's 20-25 BB pre flop, he bet 10BB, you now raise to 50BB. If he reraises, you can comfortably fold. Notice that he will fold some hands that dominate yours.


[/ QUOTE ]

I considered this option (after thinking about for a few days) and determined that I probably would have been pot commited if he would have moved in after a 50BB raise. It would have been about half my stack. AS I said in another reply, my best choices would have been to jut call, hoping for help on the turn or shove my stack in against him, hoping to use my image to buy him off the hand.
Folding wouldn't have been awful, but in this case, I think I made the absolutely worst move I could by just throwing a little pressure at him.

I really didn't see his all-in coming, but I will next time. I just hate these kinds of big decisions (and he's good enough to sense that) - I'm pretty much guessing (I later put this guy on 50/50 chance of bluffing in that spot.) and guessing wrong either way is costly. If his stack was a little smaller or the pot a little bigger I probably would have paid to see it, but it just felt real bad at the time.

[LetsRock]

Everything you said is the exact circle I've been chasing myself around in for the last two weeks. It was about 50/50 he was trying to not get a call/trying to take my stack.

I would have been getting a little less then 2:1 on my call of his push, my kicker just stunk and I missed my suit. If I was behind, I probably needed a couple of perfect cards to win. If his stack had been just a little smaller or the pot just a little bigger I probably would have called. He knows what he's doing and played the hand very well against me. A lot of people at that table wouldn't have laid down with TP. Vs. anyone else and I wouldn't be so bothered, but he is one of the reasons I'm in this game - to learn how to handle tougher players and I'm not sure I learned anything on this hand! Well a little.

LOL - This is killing me.

[hockey1]

Seems like a perfect example of why you don't call decent-sized raises with Axs in NL. IMO this is an easy fold preflop. And, unless the stack sizes are small, and or UTG is much more "maniacal" than "playful" (betting into 3 callers of his 5x BB preflop raise) this is a pretty easy fold on the flop too. You're making it more complicated than it needs to be.

One question: do others think the fact that there are a number of callers changes the preflop decision here? Stated more generally, how does the number of callers affect your decision to call raises with drawing hands in no limit (versus limit)?