A QTo Hand

nepenthe · #1 08-09-2004, 05:34 PM

No reads except the table was pretty loose.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: nepenthe is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, nepenthe calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (5.33 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 folds, nepenthe calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

I called with the intention of raising the turn no matter what fell.

Turn: (4.66 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, nepenthe raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

I put UTG+1 on a sole King, and MP1 on a sole queen, a draw, or some other lower pair.

River: (10.66 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, nepenthe checks.

Somehow I feel that my bet won't be for value.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB
Main Pot: 10.66 BB, between nepenthe, UTG+1 and MP1.

jrobb83 · #2 08-09-2004, 05:54 PM

I would fold pre flop, this hand is a pretty big piece of garbage.

Nice flop, I'd probably raise the flop hoping for some good flop action, your hand is very strong, so nothing wrong with building a big pot on the flop.

I think you have to bet this river. I think you'll be called by just a Q often enough to make money. People make some amazing river calls at party, take advantage.

bsk1999 · #3 08-09-2004, 06:26 PM

1) fold pre flop, QTo is a losing hand in the long run
2) raise the flop. Who's betting here? I would put MP on KQo, or QJo, they will call to the river. BB is probably on a draw (J9), maybe AT or KT
3) K hurts, now you are behind AJ, J9, KQ, KT. If you had bet the flop you could have knocked out the BB, and had a better read on MP. I call here a bet, check it through
4) Following my logic above, if it's checked through on the turn, and checked to me on the river, I bet, if I'm bet into I call. With your play, I check it throuh as now any King beats me.

bisonbison · #4 08-09-2004, 06:32 PM

hooboy.

fold preflop. raise the flop. bet the turn. bet the river.

mikeyvegas · #5 08-09-2004, 06:37 PM

I do not hate this call pf if the table is loose.

slogger · #6 08-09-2004, 06:46 PM

OK, I may be too wedded to Ed's preflop recommendations these days, but this looks like your average loose Party 3-6 game. And we're told the table seems pretty loose.

I think the critics may be giving up some EV (though probably not a ton) by folding QTo in this spot. FWIW, Ed recommends that a player in a "tight" loose game (READ: less loose than the clown fests at most B&Ms but still an avg of 3-5 players to the flop) call here.

Don't love the flop slowplay. Bet the river (this is still Party Poker) - if you're not going to bet this river, I suspect you shouldn't be playing QTo after all. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

nepenthe · #7 08-09-2004, 06:57 PM

bisonbison,

While your suggestion is certainly the standard play and I understand it well, that's not what I'm interested in. I feel on a pretty loose Party 3/6 table such as the one I was in, I can play QTo and outplay them (granted, on pokertracker QTo is so far a 0.03 BB loser after 111 hands). On the flop I'm clearly ahead with top two, so I'm interested in getting some overcallers. On the turn, I am not afraid of a QK or AJ as I expect these hands to be raised. I do believe that there is at least a sole King, however, and I'm in a good position to raise and trap the field for two bets, forcing any straight draws (which I think likely) to call two cold.

If 3-bet on the turn, I would feel I'm in trouble and decide what to do on the river depending on the action.

River card is bad. Any king beats me. I seriously considered betting here, but being that I raised the turn and any singleton kings are clearly afraid of a better king or a better two pair or a set, betting for value did not seem right.

If I had raised the flop and bet the turn, I would be compelled to bet the river. By showing weakness on the flop, I was able to read the singleton K with more certainty.

As it turned out, both of my remaining opponents had KJo and they split.

bisonbison · #8 08-09-2004, 07:00 PM

Nep, I missed that the river paired the board, so I agree with the river check, but when you get a broadway flop at a loose table with a small pot and you get such a solid opportunity to raise the flop, I think you should. A lot of people will make mistakes by calling with gutshots or worse paired hands.

MarkD · #9 08-09-2004, 07:05 PM

I think those people that have been recommending the pre-flop fold so vehemently are too tight or too afraid. QT needs to be given special attention pre-flop but it is certainly a playable hand in the right situation.

Or maybe I'm too loose.

Victor · #10 08-09-2004, 07:07 PM

The preflop call is fine so long as the button is not a loose raiser.

Waiting for the turn to raise is fine given the flop as well.

But the river is absolutely criminal. There really is only one hand that beats you here given the play and that is K-10. However, if someone had that you would have been 3-bet on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Somehow I feel that my bet won't be for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhh, this situation could be used as a textbook example of when to bet for value. Remember, betting for value occurs when a worse hand will call you. Are you saying that your opponents are so tight that they will fold top pair here? You even said the table was pretty loose. I think you lost 2BB by not betting this river.