My Stud Mistakes

[Al_Capone_Junior]

1. I represent a pair of Aces on third street too often, though not all the time.

It is worth it to represent a pair of aces when...
A) you have a pocket pair that's big, but not aces
B) you might steal the blinds by doing so
C) your opponents play in such a manner that by representing aces, you are considerably more likely to win the pot without a fight on a later round

It is not worth it to represent aces when...
A) you're doing it every time you have an ace up
B) your opponents are loose calling stations
C) you have been caught bluffing recently by these opponents
D) you have a mediocre hand that is very live, but wouldn't like to be reraised

2. I play nearly all pairs for the price of the bring-in regardless of how dead my hand is.

FATAL mistake. If I have split fives, and one five is dead, I will virtually never play the hand. I am a long term winner at stud, and I feel this is the right way to play. When the pair gets much bigger, sometimes you should play anyway, but dead cards suck major ass.

3. I play nearly all three straights for the price of the bring-in regardless of how dead my hand is.

I fold most three straights, unless they have overcards and are very live. Three straights mostly suck.

4. I, on occasion, can be bullied off a huge pot. This mistake hurts like hell, when I see some clown take down a pot with a hand smaller than what I had.

well there's only one way to get past this problem. Bite the bullet and "call when the pot is big."

al

[Andy B]

If I recall correctly, 7CS4AP says you can play JT9 for a full bet with a Queen and a 7 out, or something equivalent. This would be 1.5 points, and would thus pass the rule of 2, which I was also unfamiliar with. It's not a bad rule of thumb, but straight draws still suck.

There are certainly suckers who need to be called down, but there are others who definitely don't.

[Andy B]

If there is a decent-sized ante, and you can get in for the bring-in, it is worth limping in with any live pair/live kicker if your opponents are such that they will pay you off the whole way when you hit your door card.

Straight draws suck, but I think your recommendations are a little tight there, too.

How do you play four tables at once? I can't even remember the cards on one table.

Is that Edison NJ? I used to live in South Plainfield before it went, well, south.

[Al Mirpuri]

Yes, Andy, I misstated what 7CSFAP says. It says never play when three straight cards are dead but you can usually play when two are out. This would make it slightly looser than West's 2 point rule on occasion.

[studplaya]

First let me say I think that it's great also that you have been so forthcoming with your own self-analysis. I think that is perhaps the most difficult part for all of us that are trying to improve in any area of life, let alone our seven card stud or other poker games..to look in the mirror honestly and objectively and then make necessary changes for the better. I also think there have been many very interesting and useful suggestions in response to the original post by others here and so I thought since I also play MICRO LIMIT stud as well I'd take a stab at trying to add what I can.


First of all I think it's important the emphasis be there in terms of the limits being played because much of the advice in 7csfap is not nearly as relevant or even applicable at all in many cases there.

1. As to overepresenting aces at these limits I would agree it is a huge and costly mistake especially in loose passive type games because players almost always have what they are representing at these limits and are going to make you show down the best hand to win. Now in a very tight game at these limits to mix it up I see it as a plus as well as raising on 3rd with some of your bigger live flush draws with face card doors ,etc. as to not become too predictable.

2. As to live small pairs I disagree about playing ANYTHING live on 3rd totally for the bring in even in loose passive games; hole pairs yes because of hidden value and implied odds that are live and it's even better in late position for obvious odds reasons. And the bigger the kicker the better and the more live the better also. The obvious reason here as stated by several of the other posters is because two little pair just usually aren't going to cut it in these games, and it's also been my experience personally as well that players at these limits are much less likely to chase a paired door on 4th as well; so where is the "great" value in playing small split pairs unless they have large live kickers??

3. As to straight draws, I agree with Andi that they basically suck and must be played with much discretion even in looser type games. You couldn't pay me enough to play 8910 unless it's a straight flush draw, and really the only two I'll play are 10JQ and 910J both with at least two flushes and totally live connectors. Lets face it fellas; at these lower limits with the cheap initial cost and sometimes even no ante at all one can afford to be so selective. As another poster profoundly put your going to make 2 pair more often with these hands so that should be one of your primary considerations on 3rd street. And for that matter the same goes for flush draws.

4. Playing too many hands in general or simply staying with them too long is a very pluggable leak that through the exercise of discipline over time will become a good habit. I personally try to start out each session by making a few folds that might even be borderline too tight in certain spots just to get myself into that mode and I am definitely not staying when the bet size doubles unless my hand is already there or developing into very strong potential to be the best hand.

On a final note, I personally find the difficult and complex nature of the game one of the keys that makes it that much fun to play. As they say in 7csfap there are an infinite number of situations that can occur and I make mistakes and have the opportunity to learn from them and improve basically almost everyday. Were this not the case, I probably would have given it up long ago due to boredom..lol..good luck to all and may your warrior mentality never die... [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[MBTIGUY]

Very well written and though out post. Thanks. This whole thread has been great. A few comments, if I may:

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the advice in 7csfap is not nearly as relevant or even applicable at all in many cases there [microlimits].


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Totally agree. It showed me (and continues to) how much I have to learn about stud. But what money I've made at these limits is because of Roy West.

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As another poster profoundly put your going to make 2 pair more often with these hands

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Uh, that "profound" poster was me but I was actually citing a prior post by Al Capone. So much belated credit given where due.

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I make mistakes and have the opportunity to learn from them and improve basically almost everyday. Were this not the case, I probably would have given it up long ago due to boredom

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Play at the microlimits can be very mechanical. Yet, at times I dissapoint myself at how bad my mechanics can be. I know that the patience, discipine and fortitude to consistently make the right mechanical plays is still the foundation to succeeding at the higher limits where the scales may tip more in favor of imagination and creativity. So I hope my mistakes at the microlimits will lead to profitable play at higher levels some day.

[MRBAA]

I think there can be a lot of creativity in playing low limit stud, mainly in applying plays to situations and identifying different types of players and adjusting accordingly. There's nothing more fun an profitable than a revved up 5-10 stud game at Foxwoods.

[MBTIGUY]

I probably underestimate myself. I certainly adjust and make plays appropriate to the tightness/looseness of the game, in general, as well as to specific types of players (loose-passive, tight-passive, etc.). And if you take "plays" to mean things like deception (e.g. making a high buried pair look like you're on a draw and then check-raising trips or two pair when it looks like your draw busted out); check-raising to get in extra bets/get a hand heads up/get a free card; semi-bluffing at appropriate times; playing weaker hands with high implied odds; then I guess I do play creatively.
Do we agree on this - that most "plays" add to your profits, while the patience to play quality hands as long as you have +EV, and the discipline to fold them when you don't, keeps you from losing money in the first place?

Sorry, the gulp factor at 5/10 is still a little high right now. But not too long ago, I thought that a .50/1.00 game was a big deal, so maybe someday...

[MRBAA]

With the possible exception of heads up against an opponent you particularly want to mess with, all "plays" should be made with the goal of having positive value when you make them. So no image plays for me. But here's a simple example: raising to come in with a hand like (3-9)K suited, with your suit live when you are first or second to act. You don't really want to play your flush draw heads up, but the extra $3 to complete versus limp is well worthwhile both because your hand can improve, you may get many callers anyway and it disguises future hands when you do have a big pair at a small cost. On the other hand, when there's one limper and I'm closing the action, I would probably just limp it in, since the limper won't fold, I don't mind if the bring in plays (in fact, I'd like him to most times so I ahve someone else to pay me off if I make my hand), and it can look like I'm limping a big pair anyway to avoid losing my one opponent.

[msk]

I am finding that the tighter I play on the deal, the better I do. I lost 3 times in one session with 3 3's a month back. Once rolled up, twice on 4th street. Huge pots. Twice to larger trips. I found that medium and low str8 draws so often become 2 pair or make the str8 only to lose a big pot. I am trying to simply not play a low pair without an A or K kicker or a matched strflush card. So (3A)3 is ok if the 3's and A's are live. (3d4d)4h is ok too if 4s and diamonds are live. I hate low str8 draws even if the cards are live, I never seem to make the str8. At least a hi str8 draw can make high pair or two.

And playing 4 hands is hard, I now only play 3 (I stopped playing 4 last week). The windows overlap nicely, I make a quick decision, easy easy. Being tight on 3rd str makes it much easier. And then getting out on 5th if it has gone south is easy too. My showdown stat is like 90%, so I think this is good.

I know SO Plainfield pretty well, close by.

Mark