Stud vs. Holdem

[msk]

A while ago, Mason had two essays posted about why good holdem players might have trouble at stud and why good stud players might have trouble at holdem. (they are not in the Essays any longer). I have been thinking a lot about those essays, here's why: After about 3 years of online play, and many 10,000's of hands, and a lot of stats of my own play, I find that I am barely a breakeven holdem player, but my results at Stud are excellent. And it is not even the results so much: At holdem I am always tentative and tense; at Stud, I always know where I am in the hand, and very confident.

This result has continued to surprise me. A lot. Oh, I have read an immense amount on both games, I have studied studied and studied and played played and played.

I have thought of a few reasons why, I wonder if others have any additions or comments:

1. Preflop/4th street: I personally find it much much easier to play stud on the first round. First, I am seeing more cards for less money. (3 vs 2 for 33% to 40% of the money usually). Also the raises cost less if the next card is a brick and an opponent catches an open high pair (and I want to fold). Also, at least for me, junk is less enticing. (that's why I put this into this forum, since I am not sure why?) And position has a different meaning...

2. Putting players on a hand: I always reflexively put people on hands in Stud; I believe I am quite good at it. I have an advanced science degree, I am an old BJ counter, and my memory is excellent. But I never even *think* about it; it just happens. In HE, much as I try, I feel like I am guessing about 75% of the time, and I do not guess well enough. So maybe seeing extra cards and remembering them is why I can instantly put someone on their most likely hand....and I know I 'guess' these very well.

3. Quality of the other players: Seems to me like no one online at 5-10 ever plays tricky or checkraises or is agressive enough at stud. They sure seem to be good and tricky (some of them anyway) at HE. And bad players at holdem who play any Ace or any 2 suited, etc, seem to me to not get punished enought by the cards; but bad stud players, who play something like AcQd8h (they like the AQ) seem to me to get punished as they deserve. Or maybe so much more is written about HE that more people actually study before they play? But anyone else feel this, or is it just me?

And Mason, if you see this, please make those essays available again, I would be interested in re-reading.

thanks,

Mark

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I have read the essays you refer to. They are basically right on the money, at least in my experience.

Your experience is similar to mine. I started off playing both stud and hold'em in casinos in atlantic city. I read the books for both, all the best books that I commonly put on required reading lists for beginners.

But after a year, I was about break even at hold'em and about a big bet per hour at stud (I hadn't taken up stud-8 yet, and didn't play much O-8, but did have a winning record for the few hours I had played).

I believe the reasons were similar to those you describe, plus some others. I have a good memory and remember cards well. This doesn't help in hold'em at all. Also, my extensive home game experience meant I was already fairly good at reading hands in stud, but had no experience doing it in hold'em, cuz we didn't play hold'em. In addition, most of my opponents at stud were older, and I was young, so I probably did have a better memory than they did.

After years and years tho, I can beat both hold'em and stud for a big bet per hour, perhaps more depending on limit, competition, speed of game, rake, tipping, etc. But the standard 1 bb/hour in a live casino is no problem for me up to about 10-20 or 15-30. (I haven't played enough at higher limits than that to have any real data).

Hold'em is quite counterintuitive, and takes much more experience to get the hang of, without a doubt. Stud is much more straight forward, if you have the best hand, or even think you have the best hand, bet and you'll do fine.

I am also one of the few players I know of that uses the check-raise in stud. I like it actually, it's very effective, but people rarely do so.

In the end, I think it's critical for people to play multiple games. I play everything that is spread in casinos except lowball. I am not a great draw player, but I would sit at a 5-10 game and not worry about getting killed. I am good at hold'em, stud, stud-8, and reasonably good at O-8. I can apply tournament strategy to any of these games quite easily. I'll also play any and all crazy home games without hesitation. I'm well rounded. Everyone should be. I pity the poor slobs who are only capable of playing limit hold'em, they are really missing out.

al

[Kenshin]

<----- poor slob

[toots]

My initial reaction to Hold Em was "stud for idiots." Since then, I've revised my opinion slightly (although only slightly). Yeah, an awful lot of the strategy can be quite different, but to me, it all boils down to placing fewer demands on your memory. Sort of a faster playing "stud-lite" that morphed into something different.

I've always thought of stud as the superior game, but I've also always sucked at stud, whereas I can at least hold my own with low-limit Hold Em.

Basically, I can't think of many things that would improve my stud game (short of losing even more money), because what I really need is a better attention span/memory, and you know, with age, memory is the second thing to go.

Hold Em, on the other hand, is a bit more conducive to ABC play at lower limits, and therefore more accessible to someone (like me) who wants to play without being a consistent loser on the way.

More recently, I've been dabbling in Omaha Hi on the play money tables online. I find that it greatly hones my skills for reflexively seeing what the nuts hand would be (and by extension, a better feel for drawing hands), since when you're playing Omaha Hi at a table where there's always 10 people to the flop, you're pretty well assured of seeing the nuts turned up at the showdown.

I'd get eaten alive at a real Omaha Hi table, but I think the play money table has improved my Hold Em skills.

(OTOH, having resisted online play for so long, now that I'm online, I'm remembering the good reason I had for resisting it for so long.)