PLO interesting hand

[msk]

I watched an interesting hand last night online in a PLO 2/4 ($400 buyin) at Paradise (44% avg preflop).

MP (about $380, agressive player) raises to $8, three callers, then called by SB (with about $180) and BB. 5 players in for $40.

Flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. All check. I am surprised. Come-on, someone has AT, someone else has trips. Ok.

Turn is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB bets $40 (pot), fold to MP who raises to $80. All otherw fold, SB re-raises, and then MP reraises SB all-in.

River is K (no flush). MP wins with JJ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 for a fullhouse. SB had AAT5r for flopped straight. (5 might be wrong, but a rag).

Ok, now that we know the cards, what are the correct plays?

1. Should SB bet the pot on the flopped nut str8, with 4 players to follow? And likely trips (and possibly two pair also) out there? (but no flush looming).

2. Should SB bet the turn, which misses making a possible FH, but makes a 4 flush? Or should SB wait for a safe river?
(Maybe call the pot bet on the turn and give up if losing the nuts on the river to a paired board or another diamond?)

3. Should MP go allin with the SB on the turn, which gives the MP about 10 FH outs and about 7-8 flush outs, none of which are the nuts? Even I knew by now that SB has the AT, but they could have included the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and another [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], killing MP's outs....

Did they both play this really badly?

What are the correct plays for both players?

Thanks for your thoughts,

Mark

[crockpot]

your aggressive label on MP is definitely off, unless you just meant aggressive preflop. no aggressive player i know checks a flopped straight + set, however far from the nuts either may be.

i like to bet out on the flop as SB, but if you expect MP to bet (and why didn't he?) it is better to check-raise to get more money in.

SB definitely has to bet the pot on the turn. just look at how many outs he is giving a free card to here. and after the flop was checked around, someone may assume he doesn't have AT. (again, case in point.)

i don't know why MP raised min. he should either call or pot it here. it's that simple: if you read no one for an AT, pot it. otherwise, call and hope to suck out. raising min is idiotic. AT will push you in anyway.

[msk]

croak,

hi.

MP was typically very aggressive, so this surprised me a bit.

I could not understand what SB was doing on that flop: I just checked on twodimes ---> he is a .584 to .416 favorite
over MP (and SB should know more or less that MP or someone has trips, and also that flushes are not likely; and a split isn't either holding 2 aces) should bet out on the flop. Even the other players should not deter him against this usually aggressive player, he is getting good odds on his money, especially more since so many of their probable high cards help him compared to MP (like the missing J, Q, and K's). So if he is waiting to check raise, that is a risk, as we see; he might even get them all to fold and win outright if he just bet, you never know. And he is a .56 to .44 fav after the turn with his made hand, so his bet there is not bad. And MP has to know that SB has the higher str8, but maybe not cause of the flop check. In that case, SB was brilliant, but lost anyway.

I am trying to really learn this game, since so many of the players are so much worse than the HE players, but it is complex.

thx,

Mark

[crockpot]

i think SB's decision depends on how he thinks the others play post-flop. if he thinks they are the type to bet trips when it is checked to them on that board, then going for a check-raise becomes a reasonable play.

given his short stack, however, SB can almost get all in by the turn anyway by betting both streets (assuming the board does not pair on the turn), so he might as well adopt this strategy. with deeper money there is more to be said for going for the check raise, especially if MP is aggressive on the flop.

one big moral of this story is that position is huge in PLO (and PLO8), so play a lot tighter up front than in the back. many people know about this concept but still don't follow it in practice.