ITM tournament hand worthy of discussion?

HoldingFolding · #1 08-24-2005, 10:01 PM

This was a hand played by pokerstudAA with 60 players remaining in yesterday's super. I was surprised at the aggression, big stack raising from UTG is something I'd avoid with KQo, but pokerstud's reply made a lot of sense. Would other MTTers make this move and if you were UTG what sort of hands would you lay down?

[ QUOTE ]
He just moved to the table and clearly wanted to take control. I thought I would have a decent chance of making him fold alot of the hands he would open UTG with here and pick up a nice size 25k pot. I also had complete control over the table and was picking up alot of pots. The average stacks were getting 16-18k closer to me in size. Looked like a good spot to gamble.

If he folds - I get 25k. If he calls I am likely in a coinflip situation for 48k or so. Mabye he has JTs, QJs, 77, 88, 66, AJ. Bad cases: if he calls with AK and then I am 30% or KK or AA. I did not think he had any of those. If I win a coin flip - I get 50k and can continue pushing on the players. and move closer to the final table.

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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1000 (10 handed) converter

MP2 (t17002)
MP3 (t23888)
CO (t19588)
Hero (t19372)
SB (t4804)
BB (t3912)
UTG (t39458)
UTG+1 (t14948)
UTG+2 (t33448)
MP1 (t21421)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t3000, 6 folds, Hero raises to t19372 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG calls t16372.

Flop: (t40244) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t40244) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t40244) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t40244

vicpanic · #2 08-24-2005, 10:10 PM

I think this is retarded.

HoldingFolding · #3 08-25-2005, 04:05 AM

Well that's succinct, if nothing else.

PokerFox · #4 08-25-2005, 05:23 AM

I don't think this is a good play, personally.

How many people blind steal UTG after just moving to a new table?

Not many.

Cheers,
fox

Tailgunner · #5 08-25-2005, 08:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How many people blind steal UTG after just moving to a new table?

[/ QUOTE ]

With the chip lead and as an unknown? I certainly would make that play. I like his logic in pushing back as well, though I'm not sure I personally would have replied to that raise as he did. If I was UTG, facing him heads-up as happened here, I'd probably take him on with just about any hand except a blatant steal. Perhaps it's dangerous prejudice, but without any other read I wouldn't fear a low-middle stack as much as I would others... and since everyone else folded nice and tightly I might assume Hero was the LAG at this table <g> The decision would be tempered by the image I'll be going for and how willing I was to have a weak hand revealed to the table, but even if I lost I'd still be in a comfortable position chip-wise.

DemonDeac · #6 08-25-2005, 09:03 AM

i dont like it. a straight UTG steal at a new table?? not too sure about that. i also dont like trying to push back with KQo cuz its just not that good of a hand, especially when viillain will most likely call cuz he's getting arouund 2.5:1 on his money and KQ is not likely to be a live hand when called, IMO.

i think the problem here is that our friend assumed just becasue he had a big stack he came to the table to try and bully. maybe the guy just caught alot of cards to build his stack and doesnst know how to bully? we dont know that and i dont think its right to assume when he just joined the table.

Tailgunner · #7 08-25-2005, 09:31 AM

I like the UTG steal.. in this situation it's because I'm coming into the table as chip leader. I'm not giving up much if I throw the hand away and I'm gaining a lot of information about the table that will help me determine how I need to play. Worth the price in my book.

Even making this play on a short stack has potential, as they're more likely to respect a UTG no-fear open raise into an unknown table. If I run into a hand and need to get lucky, so be it. I'm already in the money and need to make something happen if I want to win anyway.

DemonDeac · #8 08-25-2005, 09:37 AM

but u cant do it when UTG at a new table because you dont know if the table is playing loose as hell and the blinds are defending everything.
now im fine with the UTG steal after he's been sitting at teh table for a while. thats fine. thats normal bullying, but not when he just joined. he doesn't know what he's getting himself into.

jayheaps · #9 08-25-2005, 10:16 AM

First of all, I fold here. There are many better places to get my $$ in. However, If i decide to player, I would reraise to around 8 or 9k. This gives you fold equity on the flop if he just calls. As the chipleader, he is probably going to call you down with lots of middle pairs so you have less chance of winning blinds preflop with this overbet.

Tailgunner · #10 08-25-2005, 10:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but u cant do it when UTG at a new table because you dont know if the table is playing loose as hell and the blinds are defending everything.

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I'll sure as heck know after I make the play though.. and I prefer that to waiting a few orbits to figure them out only to have them switch gears on me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Losing a few blinds/antes is going to cost me anyway, why wait until the table has a read on *me*? Take control. Besides, who said UTG was stealing? That's my point, and that's why it works... he's new to the table, and you just don't know. If the blinds want to defend their garbage against my garbage that's fine... and I may still take it down by continuing my aggression on the flop.

KNowing of this tactic, I believe, is why he was willing to push back with a wider range of hands. Even if he was up against a monster (and I grant that it is more likely a new UTG won't bluff) he still had a chance to win, and that would have given him the position to make a run for gold. The remaining times he catches UTG making a steal and again increases his lead. +EV in the long run.

As UTG I'm willing to spend that 3k to learn about the table... if it was a steal and Hero was bold enough to claim it, I salute him [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand."