Quick question.

[Saddlepoint]

Hi guys. I humbly request the help of the STT forum for a simple question. I know you guys have like your own thing going on here, so, I don't mean to intrude or be disrespectful. The hand played like this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (2 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero (t1270)
BB (t1730)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t60, BB calls t40.

Flop: (t120) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t80, BB calls t80.

Turn: (t280) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t100, BB raises to t240, Hero raises to t400, BB calls t160.

River: (t1080) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t200, BB raises to t400, Hero calls t200.

Final Pot: t1880

This opponent was pretty passive, and on the river after the check/raise I put him on exactly a flush, probably ruling out the two or three lowest ones, considering that my turn play was pretty, well, obvious. I put myself slightly ahead of his range.

My question is strictly about the river. What do you guys think of the river smooth call? Like I said, I put myself ahead of his range, and I'd be willing to bet that he'd call for all my chips with anything he'd check/raise with, but on instinct I decided to just call anyway. My logic was something like, if I'm wrong I go broke and that's it, but if I'm right it's only another few hundred.

Does that make any sense to you guys? From a tournament theory perspective?

PS - I voted for citanul.

[se2schul]

If you reraise him on the river, what hands do you think he'll call that you beat? If you think he'll only call with a better flush, then calling is good.

It all comes down to what range of hands you put him on.

Personally, I like the call.

[citanul]

if we accept whatever range you want us to, to allow for you to be slightly ahead, the river does indeed pose an interesting situation.

you've got TONS of options here as i see it, and all of them have their merits, and unfortunately i won't be able to go in to great detail right now, but i wanted to help get some push going here.

hero's got like 700-750 left on the river with a 1080 pot.

hero thinks he's slightly ahead.

villain checks to the hero

hero can check

hero can push

hero can bet a small value bet

hero can bet a small value bet hoping to induce a checkraise

hero can make a bet about 1/2 his stack that would leave all checkraises to all in

after the checkraise, the problem i see with just calling is that well, you're saying you think he's behind your range, and well, he's only going to have to call 300 more in to a pot of 2300 or so on your final push. combine that with the fact that if you're trying to preserve your remaining stack, and i don't see the value really in leaving these last 300 behind. i mean, what's the fear, that he's going to fold to your push 3 bet? that shouldn't be a fear.

personally i like 1 of 3 options here:

check behind (if you really think you're only *slightly* ahead of his range, not getting the rest of your stack tied up here is a viable way to go).

push (you've got 700 and the pot is already 1080 and you think you're ahead)

bet about 150 (i like this as a route to getting him to checkraise you so you can get it all in. whether or not you actually want to get it all in is a different question, but i'm working within your framework here).

i think that i tend to go betweeen options 1 and 2 here far more frequently, particularly at lower stakes games, than option 3. so looking at options 1 and 2, i'd say that it would very much depend on how close i thought i was to my opponent's range. also, if i thought i had any folding equity at all (incredibly not likely here) it'd be in my consideration.

my point is mostly that if the analysis of how close you actually think you are is close enough that you're very likely behind depending on your guestimation, i'm more likely to check. the more donkish and the farther ahead of my opponent my guestimation could have me, the more likely i am to push (or add a smaller valuebet to the mix).

hope that's of any value ot all.

c

[pooh74]

I assume the game is still 8-9 handed and you just included the relevant stacks?

Anyway, Im an idiot bc that has to be the case.

I like your analysis. With blinds still low you can come back from this if yore behind and dont stand to gain THAT much more equity relatively in the prize money if you get the rest.

What's the buy-in? I think youre ahead here more often than you think...I would put villain in a low BI SNG, in the BB on many more hands here than a made flush...

[Saddlepoint]

That was of incredible value, thanks a lot.

To clarify a little:

- It was a heads up S&G, low buy-in.

- I wasn't trying to incite a check/raise, even though I thought I was ahead. This player was very passive, and I was better than him, so I didn't really want to get it all in even with this strong of a hand. I was just throwing out a small bet that I thought he'd call with a variety of weaker hands. I thought I was way ahead of his range when he checked to me. It was after he check/raised that I put myself very slightly ahead.

- You said,

[ QUOTE ]
after the checkraise, the problem i see with just calling is that well, you're saying you think he's behind your range, and well, he's only going to have to call 300 more in to a pot of 2300 or so on your final push. combine that with the fact that if you're trying to preserve your remaining stack, and i don't see the value really in leaving these last 300 behind. i mean, what's the fear, that he's going to fold to your push 3 bet? that shouldn't be a fear.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the point that led to me posting this hand. If it's a cash game, and I think I'm ahead of his range, I push here 100% of the time because he's obviously not folding anything, so it's +EV. But in a tournament...

1) If I'm ahead and just call, I'm up 2240 to to 760.
2) If I'm ahead and push, I'm up 2540 to 460.
3) If I'm behind and just call, I'm down 2670 to 330.
4) If I'm behind and push, I'm out.

It just seemed to me that the 1-or-3 group was way more appealing than the 2-or-4 group, and that the 330 in tournament chips was way more valuable when it's all I have left than if I'm a big chip leader. That's all. I'm definitely pushing in a cash game.

- I think you're right, I think I should have checked behind or pushed.

- You edited my post, it says, but I can't figure out for the life of me what you edited.

Regardless, thanks a lot for looking at the hand.

[kyro]

Other people have offered analysis so I won't bother looking too much into it. I thought I'd point out that


[ QUOTE ]
Hi guys. I humbly request the help of the STT forum for a simple question. I know you guys have like your own thing going on here, so, I don't mean to intrude or be disrespectful.

[/ QUOTE ]

is insulting.

Post stuff here. Reply to threads. I don't think we've ever exiled someone from the STT Forum because they weren't a cool kid. Hell, most of the people here don't have a clue who I am and I post threads and reply to many others as often as I can.