Early position KQ, Party 15/30

[QuikSand]

Troublesome hand below -- I now question my line at almost every step of it.

- - -

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG <font color="#A500AF">(2+2 Player)</font> calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">2+2 Player raises</font>, Hero calls, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">2+2 Player bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, 2+2 Player calls.

River: (12.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, 2+2 Player checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, 2+2 Player calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

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Flop - I was prepared to raise the early bettor on the flop with my top pair, good kicker -- but UTG (a name I recognize from 2+2) jumped the gun and raised it himself. At that point, I make him for AQ, dominating me -- but I'm not so sure how secure I ought to be with that read. I call the two bets, rather than three bets -- was calling actually the worst option here?

Turn - My intent here was to isolate with UTG, and presumably get a cheap showdown. I figured I might be behind, but since I planned to call down, I'd try to get the two bets in now, and get to the end cheaply. He calls the raise, doesn't reraise, and the plan looks good until...

River - Q on the river makes me think my read is less secure (only one other Q out there, so the AQ seems somewhat less likely, even though his play all adds up to that hand to me), so rather than checking down, I bet again. I don't like his call (which should have told me soemthing, I guess).


...any thoughts?

[QuikSand]

Incidentally, as you can probably tell from my narrative, my focus was almost entirely on UTG -- the SB who hept calling was, I figured, on a flush draw, and dropped at the end (consistent with that read).

[oscark]

Preflop I would have raised or folded. Besides that, looks good. I doubt he limped UTG with AQ. At worst, I think you are splitting this pot. Not betting the river would have been a crime.

[ReMMy]

I think your biggest mistake is "putting him on AQ". Respect the other solid players, but don't automatically put them on a hand that beats you just because they raise. If you were that sure then you should have just folded, but if you're that tight then you have other problems. Also, I would expect a solid player to raise w/ AQ to 1 limper.

Your hand has a good chance of being the best but is still quite vulnerable against a large field, I would absolutely 3 bet the flop to drive out everyone possible and define my hand.

[QuikSand]

[ QUOTE ]
I think your biggest mistake is "putting him on AQ". Respect the other solid players, but don't automatically put them on a hand that beats you just because they raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair advice, I understand the pitfalls of giving credit to another good player for whatever bogeyman hand is out there against you.

But here, AQ really did make the most sense to me. He's a solid player, who called (but did not raise) under the gun. Could be a big hand like AA looking for a reraise, but more likely to be a hand good enough to call but not raise -- in my mind, that puts him in the "pretty good ace" or "middle pair" range, most likely.

He raises the flop -- would he raise with a hand like 88 or 66 here? I thin we'd hear from the set on the turn, rather than right away. Top pair makes more sense, and either KQ or AQ seem to fit the bill -- that's a hand that might well want to raise, try to isolate, and beat out the early bettor.

I'm trying to do more than invent monsters under the bed, I'm trying to make sense of the total player'a actions -- and his actions there sounded like a strong queen to me. I stayed in the pot since I felt that KQ and maybe even QJ were possibilities... so I had a shot against him in either case.



But I agree, that reraising the hand on the flop is preferable to just calling the two bets. Wonder what it would have taken to shed the (presumed) flush drawer, though...

[TStoneMBD]

utg almost certainly doesnt have AQ, as everyone on these forums raises that UTG. There is pretty much no hand that UTG can have to beat you assuming he is playing ABC, unless he limped in with 66. Calling 2 on the flop and raising the turn is a good way to earn the most from the 2+2er, so i like that line, but the river is a value bet even if the Q doesnt come. by calling the flop you also get to see what the BB will do, and maybe be able to get away from the hand if he shows alot of strength.

[Nightwish]

Like the others said, UTG likely doesn't have AQ or KQ because he should have raised those preflop if he's really a 2+2er. Similarly, you should have raised your KQ preflop!

But anyway, I'm actually putting UTG on QJs, so I think you're good. Still, I would have 3-bet the flop to try to clear out all the flush draws or at least make them pay more. But your line isn't bad either. The only possible hand you lose to is AQ, and if he has that, he's a pussy.

[rory]

Fold preflop.

[Klepton]

KQo is almost always a raise or fold early position. Could his moves suggest Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ? He hits the diamond on the turn and figures he's still good?

[QuikSand]

Hmmm... I do enjoy the "mixed" advice tradition of 2+2. I'm not quite sure what to take from this.

I am pretty well settled that the flop call was the worst of my three options (as it often seems to be) - that I probably should have reraised, or folded, in that order.


As far as the "AQ would have raised" theory -- I guess I'm in a minority, then, that I do not usually raise with AQ when UTG, especially against a typically loose table, as this was. I probably limp more than half the time in that spot -- but I'll give mnore though to playing it aggressively there, and will be more aware of that possibility/probability against others.


Anyway... whatever my logic, flawed or otherwise, my suspicions were correct:

UTG shows AQ...
Hero shows KQ, and is outkicked with trips.
UTG takes 14.5 BB pot.