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Old 01-07-2004, 04:52 PM
brad brad is offline
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Default UK crime and guns

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2656875.stm

'According to a recent UN study, England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for "very serious" offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed.
'

'You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. '
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Old 01-07-2004, 04:53 PM
brad brad is offline
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Default Re: UK crime and guns


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Wednesday, 15 January, 2003, 10:54 GMT
Why Britain needs more guns


Would break-ins fall for fear of armed resistance?



By Joyce L Malcolm
Author and academic


As gun crime leaps by 35% in a year, plans are afoot for a further crack down on firearms. Yet what we need is more guns, not fewer, says a US academic.

"If guns are outlawed," an American bumper sticker warns, "only outlaws will have guns." With gun crime in Britain soaring in the face of the strictest gun control laws of any democracy, the UK seems about to prove that warning prophetic.
For 80 years the safety of the British people has been staked on the premise that fewer private guns means less crime, indeed that any weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding, pose a danger.

JOYCE L MALCOLM
Professor of history, Bentley College, US

Author of Guns & Violence: the English Experience

Senior Advisor, MIT Security Studies Program


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Government assured Britons they needed no weapons, society would protect them. If that were so in 1920 when the first firearms restrictions were passed, or in 1953 when Britons were forbidden to carry any article for their protection, it no longer is.

The failure of this general disarmament to stem, or even slow, armed and violent crime could not be more blatant. According to a recent UN study, England and Wales have the highest crime rate and worst record for "very serious" offences of the 18 industrial countries surveyed.

But would allowing law-abiding people to "have arms for their defence", as the 1689 English Bill of Rights promised, increase violence? Would Britain be following America's bad example?


The 'wild west' image is out of date
Old stereotypes die hard and the vision of Britain as a peaceable kingdom, America as "the wild west culture on the other side of the Atlantic" is out of date. It is true that in contrast to Britain's tight gun restrictions, half of American households have firearms, and 33 states now permit law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons.

But despite, or because, of this, violent crime in America has been plummeting for 10 consecutive years, even as British violence has been rising. By 1995 English rates of violent crime were already far higher than America's for every major violent crime except murder and rape.

You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. Why? Because as common law appreciated, not only does an armed individual have the ability to protect himself or herself but criminals are less likely to attack them. They help keep the peace. A study found American burglars fear armed home-owners more than the police. As a result burglaries are much rarer and only 13% occur when people are at home, in contrast to 53% in England.


Concealed weapon can be carried in 33 states
Much is made of the higher American rate for murder. That is true and has been for some time. But as the Office of Health Economics in London found, not weapons availability, but "particular cultural factors" are to blame.

A study comparing New York and London over 200 years found the New York homicide rate consistently five times the London rate, although for most of that period residents of both cities had unrestricted access to firearms.

When guns were available in England they were seldom used in crime. A government study for 1890-1892 found an average of one handgun homicide a year in a population of 30 million. But murder rates for both countries are now changing. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and by last year it was 3.5 times. With American rates described as "in startling free-fall" and British rates as of October 2002 the highest for 100 years the two are on a path to converge.


Gun crime rates between UK and US are narrowing
The price of British government insistence upon a monopoly of force comes at a high social cost.

First, it is unrealistic. No police force, however large, can protect everyone. Further, hundreds of thousands of police hours are spent monitoring firearms restrictions, rather than patrolling the streets. And changes in the law of self-defence have left ordinary people at the mercy of thugs.

According to Glanville Williams in his Textbook of Criminal Law, self-defence is "now stated in such mitigated terms as to cast doubt on whether it still forms part of the law".

Nearly a century before that American bumper sticker was slapped on the first bumper, the great English jurist, AV Dicey cautioned: "Discourage self-help, and loyal subjects become the slaves of ruffians." He knew public safety is not enhanced by depriving people of their right to personal safety.

Joyce Lee Malcolm, professor of history, is author of Guns and Violence: The English Experience, published in June 2002.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would more guns help cut crime in the UK?

With around 30,000 gun deaths a year, I think we should look elsewhere than the US for ideas on this subject. More legally-owned guns means more chances for accidental deaths in the home from guns, more teenagers finding their parents' guns and playing with them, more chances for legal guns to be stolen by criminals to be used by criminals.
R K Bulmer, UK

I'd rather, if my granny were to be mugged, that she had the choice to pull out her purse, or her .45 Magnum. She's a little too old to learn kung-fu, or to run away. She may well hand her purse over anyway, but at least she has the choice. Criminals carry guns anyway, so it's about time the rest of the population had the same choice.
Sid, UK

I can't see the average British citizen wanting to take pot shots at potential muggers, however a right to self defence, not something chewed to incoherence by the lawyers, would do more to restore people's respect for the law than a personal armoury - that and more police to investigate existing crimes.
Andy, UK

I'm an expat living in Texas, where we all as citizens have a right to carry guns. I do not personally carry a weapon, but criminals do not know that. That is a deterrent. I am armed to the teeth at home in my "castle". Criminals have a question they ask themselves when they think about approaching a house out in the country: Is that family armed or not? More than likely they are.
And Barnett, Texas, US

I find this notion ludicrous. We do not need a nation of armed vigilantes (potential or otherwise) to ensure the peace, but rather active citizens who are willing to stand together against crime in their neighborhoods and cooperate with local authorities to apprehend criminals. This is the way to reduce crime. To draw a link between gun ownership and an overall drop in crime in the US is spurious and the article does not have enough evidence to point to a causative relationship between the two.
Sean Aaron

It is clear that the knee jerk reaction after Dunblane has achieved precisely nothing except reduce our chances of any sporting shooting success. The politicians have consistently read this matter wrongly. Perhaps it is time to give the academics a chance?
Alan Preddy, UK

Allowing homeowners to arm themselves will simply encourage potential burglars to arm themselves, and I don't particularly want to get into a gunfight for a colour television.
Mike, UK

This is like saying that raising the speed limit in built-up areas will cut pedestrian deaths since cars will spend less time passing through.
J, UK

Rarely do we get to hear such a flimsy argument based on misused and easily quoted statistics as Prof. Malcolm's. More avaliability of firearms in the UK would bring us more Dunblanes and perhaps a Columbine.
J.Canning, UK

Can you imagine the number of mistakes, accidents, acts of temporary insanity, etc. that would result from having guns freely available? I wonder what the police think of this crazy idea - what policeman would dare to investigate a "domestic quarrel" call, not knowing what firepower he might face?
Gordon, Canada,

More guns in the UK would mean less crime. If crimnals fear the use of firearms by citizens then they will be less likly to committe an offense. People should have the right to own firearms as well as carry them in the UK.
Ian, UK


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Key stories
London gun crime drops
Valentine's funeral
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Background
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Gun crime by area
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TALKING POINT

How can guns be made less accessible?


See also:


09 Jan 03 | Politics
Labour losing crime initiative

06 Jan 03 | Politics
Tackling the causes of gun crime

08 Jan 03 | Politics
New controls on replica guns

09 Jan 03 | Politics
'Mixed messages' on burglary?

09 Jan 03 | Politics
Burglary victims speak out

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West Midlands Police
Police Superintendents' Association of England and Wales
Association of Chief Police Officers
Home Office

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In This Section No rush to war, says Blair 10,000 chased for congestion fine Omagh detectives make arrest Beckham forgives Ferguson Waiter jailed for underage sex Britons 'baffled over euro rate' Sleepy drivers who kill face jail Man charged after boy stabbed Climbdown on care home rules Ex-Gurkhas take MoD to court Foster anger over Cheriegate film Fame or misfortune beckons for weblogs? Sex workers say 'let us stay' Expat e-mail: Afghanistan EU warning to Iraq considered



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  #3  
Old 01-07-2004, 05:19 PM
Tuco Tuco is offline
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Default Re: UK crime and guns

[ QUOTE ]
'You are now six times more likely to be mugged in London than New York. '

[/ QUOTE ]

Your child is also more likely to blow his head off accidentaly.

There is a social price to pay with an increase of gun ownership. I'm not sure this is true, but I would suspect that even though you are more likely to be mugged in London, you are probably alot less likely to die of a gunshot. If true, I for one would rather be mugged than shot.

Tuco.
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  #4  
Old 01-13-2004, 03:58 AM
Moyer Moyer is offline
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Location: Iowa
Posts: 150
Default Re: UK crime and guns

[ QUOTE ]
Your child is also more likely to blow his head off accidentaly.

[/ QUOTE ]

A person can control gun safety in their home. All you have to do is keep them locked up. But you can't really control what happens on the streets (unless you yourself are carrying a gun [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

[ QUOTE ]
There is a social price to pay with an increase of gun ownership. I'm not sure this is true, but I would suspect that even though you are more likely to be mugged in London, you are probably alot less likely to die of a gunshot. If true, I for one would rather be mugged than shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are also probably a lot more likely to die from stabbing in London than in New York.

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  #5  
Old 01-13-2004, 10:20 AM
superleeds superleeds is offline
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Default Re: UK crime and guns

I was born in England and lived in London for 15 years. I have lived in the US for the last 4 years. (3 years in Manhattan). It is true that in general I have felt much safer on the streets of NYC, and yes I have been in some unsavoury parts, than I did in London but I think the causes of this have very little to do with gun ownership.
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