"If you don't like it, leave"

[Utah]

Good to see that you are still chewing on that crayon.....

I would love to tangle with you now as I do enjoy your wit. But alas, no time for the next couple of days.

Of course, I could not hold back a few comments towards you as you provide such a target rich environment:

1) You still need to go to dictionary.com or some equivalent and look up the word lie. Grand generalizations about conservative ideas are simply not lies. So far, you have provided only 2 examples of potential lies: 1) Aircraft carrier - a minor lie that I agreed with you and in fact had mentioned before you even brought it up and 2) Bush Speech about Uranium - while it might be a lie, and a whopper at that, it is still very much in dispute and you provided none of the backup I requested to prove your point.

the first big lie that actually came into my mind was the perennial and blatant conservative lie about liberals being less patriotic than conservatives

This is clearly an opinion. Please tell me sir, how is this a lie?

2) I personally don't think liberals are less patriotic that Republicans. I don't think it is a liberal or conservative thing. What the heck does patriotic mean anyway?

I certainly don't think people disagreeing with the war, the direction of the country, etc. is unpatriotic (for lack of a better word). Heck, one could consider such actions extremely patriotic as they are trying to shape and better this country. To me, we might disagree greatly on the course we should take, but it is all about bettering the country and moving the ball forward. Under that vein, I have zero problems with those who believe in communism or some other form of government if they truly share the same end goal.

That being said, I do think there is a group out there (the Algers of the world) that has nothing but utter contempt for their country and they would like to see it fail. I think this group secretly likes seeing terrrorists kill U.S. soldiers and they like seeing the U.S. "get its due". These people have no desire to advance U.S. interests and they simply dispise where they live. To those people I would say - "well, it you don't like it hear. Go somewhere else." Common sense to me. If you don't want to help and dont like us, we don't want you (although we will tolerate you) and you obviously don't want us. Why stay?

btw - again, I am not a conservative or a Bush supporter. Closest would probably be libertarian.

[brad]

'Or should we simply dismantle the military, turn a blind eye to the realities of the world and human nature, stick out heads in the sand, and just, uh, "pray?"'


lets remember 911 happened because pc crap and laziness and stupidity. no locking cockpit doors, pilots not armed, cant be suspicious of suspicous looking characters, etc.

and thats the very best interpretation. worst case realistic model (ie it fits the evidence) people wont consider for emotional reasons.

[brad]

'
To those people I would say - "well, it you don't like it hear. Go somewhere else." Common sense to me. If you don't want to help and dont like us, we don't want you (although we will tolerate you) and you obviously don't want us. Why stay?
'

so if parents (who in their area are a minority) dont want their preteen/teen daughters to get on demand secret abortions via school and stuff and all that goes along with that, you think they are wrong to lobby and get 'their' guys on school board and change policy , etc. ? they should just pack up and leave?

to take a line from the jews, where should they (eventually ahve to) go? the moon?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

When defining everything as "good" or "bad," the left-of-center crowd seems to demonize everything to the right of themselves

The right of center tends to do the same thing as well. The left, though, seems to exude more a sense of intellectual superiority, as if looking down their nose at people who express conservative views.

For me, I take solace in the fact that many very conservative people I meet consider me hideously liberal, and many liberals I know consider me to be to the right of Attila the Hun (but to the left of Gerry Callahan*)


* fans of Boston sports radio will get that one.

[andyfox]

Conservatives were against America's involvement in World War II and were against gearing up for fighting the Soviet Union in the Cold War until the liberal Harry Truman forced them into it. There was a very strong streak of isolationism in the mainstream, conservative Republican Party. They were the ones who wanted to bury their heads in the sand and dismantle the military.

[Cyrus]

"I personally don't think liberals are less patriotic that Republicans. I don't think it is a liberal or conservative thing."

I am not referring to you when I claim that conservatives lie, that they lie big and that they lie most of the time. I don't know you personally so I cannot tell. That you jump up at every opportunity to defend the conservatives from my accusation is intriguing, on two fronts: (a) it may indicate from you an unwitting identification with their causes, depite your repeated denials that you have ever inhaled conservative fart, and (b) it robs me of the chance to debate this with an out-out-out proponent of those lies!

"What the heck does patriotic mean anyway?"

I cannnot define what patriotic is but I know it when I see it

"The perennial and blatant conservative lie about liberals being less patriotic than conservatives... : This is clearly an opinion. Please tell me sir, how is this a lie?"

No, it is not an opinion, it is a lie. All kidding aside, one of the primary attributes of patriotism (Greek patris: one's country) is to willingly serve your country. It is therefore dowright insulting and as blatant a lie as they come, when conservatives accuse as "unpatriotic" people who have served their country in uniform and have seen battle, especially when those same conservatives have shirked from that elementary patriotic duty.

The sight of politican chicken hawks accusing as "unpatriotic"liberal politicians, when liberal war veterans in Congress outnumer conservative war veterans, is nauseating. They are using a pure, unadulterated lie for petty politics. They know that this is not so (one man had lost two legs and an arm, for pete's sake, yet his loyalty to America was questioned by his GOP prick of an opponent), and they know that their claim is completely unsupported by facts, yet they consciously mouth off those false claims, in order to gain political brownie points.

--Cyrus

PS : Republican politicians were not always like that. It was a Republican who was among the first to stand up to the lies and smears of Joe McCarthy. People were more honorable back then, and politics was not as disgusting a pit of lying hounds as it's become.

[Cyrus]

You don't think the Bozo-in-Chief is a Bozo?

The record shows that Double You is a silver-spoon-fed, draft-evadin', cocaine-sniffin', drunk drivin', consistently lyin', heartless & gutless politician of below-average intelligence (even as pols go). Maybe bozo is not accurate enough but it's shorthand.

What would you prefer?

[brad]

' politician of below-average intelligence (even as pols go'

funny thing is he was very articulte speaker as gov of texas, from 1st hand accounts. so what hppnd?

[Rushmore]

Isolationism and dismantling the military are somewhat different things, I think.

Truman wasn't a "conservative?" What about Jefferson? Or Franklin? Is there any difference in peoples' minds between "progressive" "liberal" Democrats," and "Old Hard Line" "conservative" "Republicans" within these two subsets.?

It would seem not.

[MMMMMM]

Also, W. scored over 1200 on his SATs (at least I've so read). Could any truly stupid person do that? Cyrus' prior defense of his claim that W. is stupid, as I recall, was based on nothing more than saying that his actions prove he is stupid, and that he has some problem with dyslexia. I said being dyslexic doesn't necessarily imply stupidity but Cyrus disagreed. Well, in high school I knew a genius who happened to be dyslexic, so if W. has a problem with dyslexia that doesn't prove him stupid IMO. All in all I think it rather ironic that Cyrus should be accusing others of lying in this thread;-)